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Please forgive, in advance, for the seeming stupidity of the question that June is about to ask. Lord knows she's been moderating this subforum since it's inception, but lately there is one aspect that somewhat rather baffles her...
There is no shortage of "ET vs. UR" debate threads on this forum. What June can't quite wrap her little 'just June' heathen mind around is the nature of what these threads are really all about: the after life. Now granted, June may not exactly be a believer, but June's also aware of the fact that we are all very much alive. Time and again she can't help but wonder: What's the deal with "after death?" June gets it that where one is "destined" to go after they die is a doctrinal/dogmatic issue that is near and dear to people's hearts. June gets it that it underscores the basic doctrinal/dogmatic aspects of each side's belief system. However....
What is the deal with the ongoing draw to what, where, when and why AFTER one dies? What about now, while one is still alive? June supposes her real question underscores the notion that while one is still walking the face of this earth as a Christian, that there would be some far more essential and far reaching issues at hand to be dealt with than "after death." She can't help but wonder at times whether the "where one goes after death" isn't a diversion from the larger issues of real life....If she is wrong in that, please: feel free to tell her. She's just somewhat taken, this morning, by this ongoing issue of where one goes after they are no longer here...
--Because you're all here, NOW. --That means that there is much to be done, much to be enjoyed, much to be appreciated, and much to clarify in order to engage in one's own life as a Christian. (Or so June would imagine?) June fully acknowledges/realizes that accordingly, due to her little 'just June' heathen status, that she's on the "fast tract to hell" but in the meantime, June's not done yet. June's got stuff to do, and a whole lot of living left to do! June wishes to not only enjoy her life, but to contribute some little something in terms of how she lives her life, NOW, and not be diverted or derailed by where she ends up later on. (Please forgive her stupidity in this, but truly, folks: Does not the intense focus on who goes where and why after death almost serve a purpose of taking away and negating what life as a Christian is, or means, in the present?)
So to anyone who cares to respond, please:
Help the little heathen better understand: Isn't it life as lived, now, that also counts? June may not be "saved" but she sure knows how to "save" that which is precious, beloved, and most essential in her own life....Such that there is precious meaning in her life now, and meaning that is meant to be lived. --What about everyone else?
Lastly, as losely translated/paraphrased in the Messsage, although only indirectly applicable to this post, this: "The Messiah has made things up between us so that we're now together on this, both non-Jewish outsiders and Jewish insiders. He tore down the wall we used to keep each other at a distance....Instead of continuing with two groups of people separated by centuries of animosity and suspicion, he created a new kind of human being, a fresh start for everybody....Christ came and preached peace to you outsiders and peace to us insiders. He treated us as equals, and so made us equals. Through him we both share the same Spirit and have equal acces to the Father." (Ephesians 2: 14,16)
So why no unity in life, but only division regarding after life? What about life?
~To those who respond, thanks in advance!
Take gentle care.
In short,because for ETer's,life is nothing but an entrance exam into the afterlife.Therefore,this life is inconsequential except as it is applied towards passing the entrance exam.UR's,on the other hand,are astounded that anyone can think of God in this fashion,and take offense at a concept of God in which somewhere around 2/3 of all people everywhere who have ever lived,at least since Christ's time,are destined for eternal and unending torture,most of them not because they rejected the ET version,but rather because they had the misfortune to be born in a land in which the ET version of God was not taught,and that version of God seems unable to overcome the geographical difficulties of Earth in teaching them about Himself.
People really should let atheists and agnostics BE atheists and agnostics.They have maqde a mature decision that they see no proof of gods,and we as Christians and theists should respect that decision.For me,it is not that hard to understand.If we look for absolute empirical proof of God,none is to be found,no matter how much we want it to be otherwise.Some folks choose to make decisions based on provable facts and that only.There is nothing wrong with this.If God required that everyone admit to His existence,He would have made it a whole lot more obvious.
"winning the battle, but losing the war" ...... Am not sure how you meant this.
You're attempting to make logical sense out of God by people's well intentioned pro \ con points of view.
Actually, Twin, June is not trying to make logical sense out of God, and she is surely not attempting to do so by people's well intentioned pro's and con's points of view. For one thing, she feels entirely no need to do so. She can understand that believers believe; that they have faith, and she has absolutely no problem with that.
What June means by "winning the battle, but losing the war" is this: Time and time again, soooo much time and effort is spent by believers debating and outright arguing with one another about the whole "after life" aspect of their faith. And time and time again, June finds herself perplexed by this ongoing battle that two sides of the same coin appear to be engaging in. Meanwhile, however, to the best of June's knowledge, only one member on this forum has undergone a vast change of perspective in their religious beliefs regarding who is/isn't saved, where they're going/not going, etc. What comes across most strongly are the arguments. At times, members go to great lengths (and often times, quite nasty ones) in order to "get the point across." June, in being June, reads these argumentative battles you all illicit among yourselves, and in addition to feeling somewhat sad about the contention, can't help but feel that an awful lot of time and energy are being spent for.....
What?
The non-stop arguing, contentiousness, and (at times) downright nastiness reflects poorly. "Outsiders" (refer to June's Ephesians quote in OP) come on and look upon the raging battle wondering what the heck is it that "Christianity" is all about!? In a sense, it isn't the actual debate itself, but rather, the means by which it is waged that reflects in a rather poor sense. June, for one, doesn't feel it is exclusively indicative of all that your belief system represents. --But the battle wages on. Does anyone win? Not really. Because no doubt many walk away from their posts feeling "I showed 'em!" but what has actually been shown, let alone changed? One feels they have temporarily won a battle, whereas the overall war is lost: The true meaning and content of Christianity.
It truly becomes lost amid the fighting.
(Trust June on that one...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
June, you will never understand the fuller meaning of God's Word nor come to believe in Christ while being epistemological about the importance of faith; and faith in his word for salvation.
Despite not being a person of faith or belief, June has the feeling that she possesses a fairly good grasp of the meaning of "God's Word." Granted, it may be on a purely cognitive or intellectual level, but one might suppose that that is better than having none, at all. --Or worse yet, disdain for it, born out of ignorance.
June would also offer this: She is not being epistemological in her thinking. For one thing, "just June" is just too darn old and too darn tired to get "epistemological" and secondly, she is actually quite content and at peace with the nature of her knowledge (or at times, lack, thereof) regarding such matters as being discussed here...Being at peace is a good thing.
With all due respect, as much as June may value love, holding love in great esteem, and as much as June may aspire to love, be loving, and to be loved, June has to be honest with you:
For The June, that's one heck of a HUGE leap you're making there!
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
But according to classic ET theology,what happens to those who didn't and don't live where they were able to hear this and make a decision on it?
Not to mention why anyone hearing about Christianity from a church that commits rampant child abuse,or from a Fred Phelps or a Jimmy Swaggart,would decide that Christianity is the correct path.
With all due respect, as much as June may value love, holding love in great esteem, and as much as June may aspire to love, be loving, and to be loved, June has to be honest with you:
For The June, that's one heck of a HUGE leap you're making there!
"I love, therefore I love God?"
Take gentle lovely care.
I think it is meant to be more like the 'spirit' of Love is the same 'spirit' of God many people (especially religious ones) miss but that normal everyday unbelievers seem to grasp without religions help.
With all due respect, as much as June may value love, holding love in great esteem, and as much as June may aspire to love, be loving, and to be loved, June has to be honest with you:
For The June, that's one heck of a HUGE leap you're making there!
"I love, therefore I love God?"
Take gentle lovely care.
If God is love and love is worthwhile to aspire and seek and find, then the connection is easy for me.
The difference is that my only perspective is a belief in God in a religious sense, I was raised with it, I associate many things with it, so that aspect of my life is not something I can just undo.
I can however understand and reject religious ideologies and for me to assert that you "need" to see things from my perspective is arrogant.
What I look for is an association between perspectives.
If Love matters and you try to love better and understand more each day, then you have already exceeded an understanding that I myself as a "believer" in the religious perspective struggles with every day.
There is absolutely no evidence that you need to adopt a religious perspective in order to be "Saved" or "know God".
You already understand what the bible talks about in the sense of everyday life. The biblical languages, speaks of living daily life to the best we can.
Religion has taken this and made a sword to cut people with in the name of love, we see it all the time, we see it in this thread.
If you June do not measure up to the image many have set before you, you are damned, destined for unimaginable suffering that will never end allowed by a God who loves you, try as they may to disguise it with a smile.
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