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Let's see...you are indirectly invoking 1 Tim 2 again....a broken record to say the least of a scripture that doesn't even support this doctrine. Great job in ripping the scriptures again to promote such fallacy.
Why can't anyone just take the scriptures for what it says anymore?
Why must we rip it apart and out of its context?
More eisegesis.
More assumption.....classic eisegesis.
You couldn't cite a UR source saying that we believe you can please God without faith, could you?
OK. You called my statement that you and others believe, "Nothing is impossible with God except to save all mankind," is an assumption. Is my assumption correct that you believe that, or do you, instead, believe it is indeed possible for God to save all mankind?
Your constant use of the word, "eisegesis," is quite the broken record, too.
The basic church organizational structure does not open up the door to questioning and debate very wide in the first place. The internet is great, it has opened up the doors to information that churches do not regularly promote. I was in such a protected environment growing up that I was in high school before I knew that the bible was translated from another language and that there was other bibles than the KJV.
Ask Verna Perry and I'll bet many others have stories that are similar. As long as you "sit and listen" your fine.
Actually, we all have the internet, why go to a church to debate when you can get all there doctrines online, calling or asking for literature. If you know what they believe beforehand, why debate? And if one doesn't like the message, don't go there. It really doesn't matter what church, no one is going to agree 100% of the time because no one is perfect. I myself do not go for people. I just love Jesus. And many times I do not agree with part of a message, however, I also know others are growing in Christ the same as I am and I have seen the message change as they grow.
Also, most churches have someone to answer scriptual questions, one just needs to ask.
The church is to teach Christ, not debate on doctrine or scriptures. Also, I am not the only person in the church and I am not there to make any point.
You couldn't cite a UR source saying that we believe you can please God without faith, could you?
I don't follow you...I never said I would cite a source. I wasn't addressing this topic.
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OK. You called my statement that you and others believe, "Nothing is impossible with God except to save all mankind," is an assumption.
No...I called your usage of 1 Tim 2:4 and the thought above an assumption. 1 Tim 2:4 has nothing to do with what you present.
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Is my assumption correct that you believe that, or do you, instead, believe it is indeed possible for God to save all mankind?
I would prefer to invoke Isa 9:7, because 1 Tim 2 :4 has nothing to do with what you present. The kingdom increases, therefore it confirms election...again.
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Your constant use of the word, "eisegesis," is quite the broken record, too.
I know, when we see such statements as you made in regards to the above verse and your assumptions. Get used to it.
My answer is that it has everything to do with life NOW! My sharing my beliefs has actually very little to do with the afterlife. It's about life NOW. Many are in bondage to fear. And churches keep those shackles and chains on people. The more people who understand that God is love and how much God actually DOES love them... the better this world is going to be. The more people TRUST that LOVE is real... and that it MEANS SOMETHING, and that it IS the most powerful thing in this universe, the more people are going to be more able to love each other. There are some who can put forth love into this world and they don't believe in God. But I feel those people are only in darkness about where LOVE originates from. Others believe in God but are in GREAT DARKNESS about what LOVE IS and what it means. Makes perfect sense to me that it's this way. Because we are all learning. Love is love, no matter the vessel.
If it's truly love, it's from God.
Everything has to do with NOW, for me.
peace,
sparrow
Nice post! I think you're on to something..
We have a hard time believing that demons can manifest themselves as lies, hatred, anger, violence, backbiting. But these may very well be demons which harm us and try to prevent us from understanding that the Love is the origin of God, and God the origin of Love.
The non-stop arguing, contentiousness, and (at times) downright nastiness reflects poorly. "Outsiders" (refer to June's Ephesians quote in OP) come on and look upon the raging battle wondering what the heck is it that "Christianity" is all about!? In a sense, it isn't the actual debate itself, but rather, the means by which it is waged that reflects in a rather poor sense. June, for one, doesn't feel it is exclusively indicative of all that your belief system represents. --But the battle wages on. Does anyone win? Not really. Because no doubt many walk away from their posts feeling "I showed 'em!" but what has actually been shown, let alone changed? One feels they have temporarily won a battle, whereas the overall war is lost: The true meaning and content of Christianity.
Since you are not a believer, you probably don't know what it feels like to have your faith attacked and perverted into something else. Imagine if you were a history professor and had huge passion for history, and all of a sudden you find yourself face to face with a group of people who are trying to convince everyone that you are a liar and that WW-2 never happened. At first your jaw would drop, but then what would you do? You would voice your disagreement, and you would try to inform the public and repair the damage done by the misinformation.
This is what is happening here with the URs attacking the message of the Gospel, and that is why we, the Christians defend it. It is our passion, and duty to defend the truth. The very core teaching of Christianity, salvation through faith in Christ, is under attack, and is being perverted into something else. If a Christian here tells am unbeliever that they need to believe in Christ in order to be saved, the URs will quickly stand up and shout "NO, DON'T DO IT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT". The Bible says these kinds of people will come and pervert the message in the Gospel, and try to confuse people and talk them out of becoming Christ followers. It is happening before our very eyes on these very boards.
Yes, I agree with Twin Spin when he quites Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
And as you have seen from the hundreds, ir not thousands of UR posts, they insists that people do not need faith, because all you need to do is be a "good person" and love your neighbor. It is heresy, plain and simple. Yes, loving your neighbor is important, but faith in Christ is ALWAYS the first priority. Without faith in God, your love, charity and good deeds towards your neighbor are like dirty rags in God's eyes.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 06-25-2010 at 05:55 AM..
This is what is happening here with the URs attacking the message of the Gospel, and that is why we, the Christians defend it.
UR's are Christians too Finn. We are all Christians who believe in Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior.
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It is out passion, and out duty to defend thre truth. The very core teaching of Christianity, salvation through faith in Christ, is under attack, and is being perverted into something else. If a Christian here tells am unbeliever that they need to believe in Christ in order to be saved, the URs will quickly stand up and shout "NO, DON'T DO IT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT".
UR's do not attack or pervert, and it is only what you see as truth that you think you have to defend. That is a blatant lie that you just told.......UR's ALWAYS teach that salvation is ONLY through Jesus Christ and we are quick to say Yes, you must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved. Stop twisting and lying, Finn. You are making your version of Christianity look really bad and NO ONE is going to want to be any part of that.
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The Bible says these kinds of people will come and pervert the message in the Gospel, and try to confuse people and talk them out of becoming Christ followers. It is happening before our very eyes on these very boards.
Again, UR's are spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, not trying to confuse people or turn them away from Jesus. There may be people on this board trying to do that, but it is not UR's. You are wasting your time fighting with UR's because it's like fighting against the truth. Your time would be better spent going to the Atheist forum and arguing with them.
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And as you have seen from the hundreds, ir not thousands of UR posts, they insists that people do not need faith, because all you need to do is be a "good person" and love your neighbor. It is heresy, plain and simple. Yes, loving your neighbor is important, but faith in Christ is ALWAYS the first priority. Without faith in God, your love, charity and good deeds towards your neighbor are like dirty rags in God's eyes.
Yet another lie.....no one UR has ever "insisted" that you don't need faith or Jesus Christ to be saved. I really wish you would educate yourself on the UR beliefs and stop with all the twisting and lying.
UR's do not attack or pervert, and it is only what you see as truth that you think you have to defend. That is a blatant lie that you just told.......UR's ALWAYS teach that salvation is ONLY through Jesus Christ and we are quick to say Yes, you must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved. Stop twisting and lying, Finn. You are making your version of Christianity look really bad and NO ONE is going to want to be any part of that.
Sorry, but I am not looking for a discussion where we scream "you are a liar" into each others faces.
You say, "you must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved", but you mean that everyone will be forced to accept Jesus after their deaths, and that is a HUGE difference to saying "you must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved", which obviously means you need to do it while living and out of your own free will. The Bible does not talk about conversion after death.
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Your time would be better spent going to the Atheist forum and arguing with them.
Eeehhh, did I mention that I have no interest in this kind of discussion?
What is the deal with the ongoing draw to what, where, when and why AFTER one dies? What about now, while one is still alive? June supposes her real question underscores the notion that while one is still walking the face of this earth as a Christian, that there would be some far more essential and far reaching issues at hand to be dealt with than "after death."
One of the reasons I take the time to argue against ET doctrine is that it does (by nature) put an emphasis on the afterlife. I mean really - what good does any kindness do if it doesn't lead directly to helping a soul avoid an eternally bad forever?
The ET paradigm screws everything up so badly. When you say "far more essential and far reaching issues at hand to be dealt with than "after death."" well, in the ET paradigm nothing is more important than where you spend eternity. How could it be? What good does it do to help a little old lady across the street if she dies burns in hell forever?
That's why I got out of the church system. It (generally) obsesses on believing the right doctrines to make God happy and to turn away wrath etc.
Sorry, but I am not looking for a discussion where we scream "you are a liar" into each others faces.
When you tell lies Finn then it makes it necessary to defend the truth. Just stop doing it and there will be no accusations.
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You say, "you must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved", but you mean that everyone will be forced to accept Jesus after their deaths, and that is a HUGE difference to saying "you must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved", which obviously means you need to do it while living and out of your own free will. The Bible does not talk about conversion after death.
We have all tried to explain this to you so many times, yet you can't retain it or simply don't want to. NO, accepting Jesus Christ NOW is what UR teaches as the only way to salvation. There is no salvation after death, only reconciliation after a time of refining. Those who do not accept Christ now will go into the afterlife to some kind of punishment. It is not eternal as you like to teach, it is only for a time and it most likely will be very unpleasant. The goal is to get as many saved here in this life to avoid God's wrath in the next life. Can you understand that??
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Eeehhh, did I mention that I have no interest in this kind of discussion?
Why not? Afraid the atheists will chew you to pieces?
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I don't follow you...I never said I would cite a source. I wasn't addressing this topic.
My sharing my beliefs has actually very little to do with the afterlife. It's about life NOW. Many are in bondage to fear. And churches keep those shackles and chains on people. The more people who understand that God is love and how much God actually DOES love them... the better this world is going to be. The more people TRUST that LOVE is real... and that it MEANS SOMETHING, and that it IS the most powerful thing in this universe, the more people are going to be more able to love each other. There are some who can put forth love into this world and they don't believe in God. But I feel those people are only in darkness about where LOVE originates from. Others believe in God but are in GREAT DARKNESS about what LOVE IS and what it means. Makes perfect sense to me that it's this way. Because we are all learning. Love is love, no matter the vessel.
