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This particular subforum, for whatever reason, has become almost exclusively a battlefield for this particular issue. My own preference would be for a dedicated subforum to be created where the US/ET issue could be discussed and debated endlessly. If that were to happen, this forum would change for the better.
My own preference would be for a dedicated subforum to be created where the US/ET issue could be discussed and debated endlessly. If that were to happen, this forum would change for the better.
I think what June is wondering is why, on so many of these threads, are so many concerned with and fervently focused on what happens to everyone after death...there are oodles of discussions regarding this subject...and why are christians not more focused or concerned with how they live their lives in the here and now.
I have to agree with June on this point....if you search the threads, most of them are discussions about what happens after death, who goes where, blah, blah, blah...and considering NO ONE KNOWS DEFINITIVELY what happens after one dies (no matter how much one blusters otherwise)...it seems mindless and pointless. There are very few discussions regarding how one should be living their lives now, making a positive impact in the world, leaving a positive legacy for the generations to come.
Please correct me if I am wrong June.
Though I'm still waiting for her response, I would to address something you said....
1. "NO ONE KNOWS DEFINITIVELY what happens after one dies"
2. leaving a positive legacy for the generations to come.
1. Honestly...not true. All religions (false and Christianity) basically have the same answer....you die and then are judged.
God says:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
For what purpose: to give account
1 Peter 4:5
But they will have togiveaccount to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
Jesus say's and he will separate the people one from another:
Matthew 25:32
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
The result of this seperation:
Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
"leaving a positive legacy for the generations to come."
God says:
"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field...
The grass withers and the flowers fall,
because the breath of the LORD blows on them.
Surely the people are grass."
"leaving a positive legacy for the generations to come."...will never happen.
Though I'm still waiting for her response, I would to address something you said....
1. "NO ONE KNOWS DEFINITIVELY what happens after one dies"
2. leaving a positive legacy for the generations to come.
1. Honestly...not true. All religions (false and Christianity) basically have the same answer....you die and then are judged.
God says:
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
For what purpose: to give account
1 Peter 4:5
But they will have togiveaccount to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
Jesus say's and he will separate the people one from another:
Matthew 25:32
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
"leaving a positive legacy for the generations to come."
God says:
"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field...
The grass withers and the flowers fall,
because the breath of the LORD blows on them.
Surely the people are grass.
"leaving a positive legacy for the generations to come."...will never happen.
There have been plenty of false religions where people are tormented in an eternal hell, twin.spin.
Please forgive, in advance, for the seeming stupidity of the question that June is about to ask. Lord knows she's been moderating this subforum since it's inception, but lately there is one aspect that somewhat rather baffles her...
There is no shortage of "ET vs. UR" debate threads on this forum. What June can't quite wrap her little 'just June' heathen mind around is the nature of what these threads are really all about: the after life. Now granted, June may not exactly be a believer, but June's also aware of the fact that we are all very much alive. Time and again she can't help but wonder: What's the deal with "after death?" June gets it that where one is "destined" to go after they die is a doctrinal/dogmatic issue that is near and dear to people's hearts. June gets it that it underscores the basic doctrinal/dogmatic aspects of each side's belief system. However....
What is the deal with the ongoing draw to what, where, when and why AFTER one dies? What about now, while one is still alive? June supposes her real question underscores the notion that while one is still walking the face of this earth as a Christian, that there would be some far more essential and far reaching issues at hand to be dealt with than "after death." She can't help but wonder at times whether the "where one goes after death" isn't a diversion from the larger issues of real life....If she is wrong in that, please: feel free to tell her. She's just somewhat taken, this morning, by this ongoing issue of where one goes after they are no longer here...
--Because you're all here, NOW. --That means that there is much to be done, much to be enjoyed, much to be appreciated, and much to clarify in order to engage in one's own life as a Christian. (Or so June would imagine?) June fully acknowledges/realizes that accordingly, due to her little 'just June' heathen status, that she's on the "fast tract to hell" but in the meantime, June's not done yet. June's got stuff to do, and a whole lot of living left to do! June wishes to not only enjoy her life, but to contribute some little something in terms of how she lives her life, NOW, and not be diverted or derailed by where she ends up later on. (Please forgive her stupidity in this, but truly, folks: Does not the intense focus on who goes where and why after death almost serve a purpose of taking away and negating what life as a Christian is, or means, in the present?)
So to anyone who cares to respond, please:
Help the little heathen better understand: Isn't it life as lived, now, that also counts? June may not be "saved" but she sure knows how to "save" that which is precious, beloved, and most essential in her own life....Such that there is precious meaning in her life now, and meaning that is meant to be lived. --What about everyone else?
Lastly, as losely translated/paraphrased in the Messsage, although only indirectly applicable to this post, this: "The Messiah has made things up between us so that we're now together on this, both non-Jewish outsiders and Jewish insiders. He tore down the wall we used to keep each other at a distance....Instead of continuing with two groups of people separated by centuries of animosity and suspicion, he created a new kind of human being, a fresh start for everybody....Christ came and preached peace to you outsiders and peace to us insiders. He treated us as equals, and so made us equals. Through him we both share the same Spirit and have equal acces to the Father." (Ephesians 2: 14,16)
So why no unity in life, but only division regarding after life? What about life?
~To those who respond, thanks in advance!
Take gentle care.
June, as you know I'm a universalist and what I believe the scriptures show that today (before our Lord comes) is the day to receive forgiveness for our sins. Later, I believe we shall PAY for them UNTIL the debt is paid. So those that overcome now truley are blessed to be in the first resurrection (the firstfruits of savlation).
Just to accept each other as we are now is contrary to the what Christ came to. For He came to set us at variance and has brought divisions even among those that claim to Christians so that those that are approved would be revealed among them.
Christ has called us out to be DISTINCT. Hope that helps.
Before reading all the replies I first want to offer my immediate response to the question, because it is a fundamental one and a personal one. I believe we have this brief existence to work out our relationship to eternity. This is a universal impulse. If there is no eternity then there is no relationship, but that basic worldview comes with semantic hurdles, issues of meaning. Those issues persist even if we were to regard individual existence as purely functional--socially, psychologically, physically.
If one answer comes to the eternal it's natural, I'd say; although it's possibly debatable that our core bearings don't rely on the idea that the universe will continue. But if so then how do we honor that existential relationship? How do we comport ourselves in a way that affirms our lives had universal purpose? This is how religions come into being. And this is why our NOW is intimately related to our THEREAFTER. Particular codifications are up for argument--huge argument --but I think this is the real meat of the matter.
I am Catholic, but I don't believe in eternal torment. I believe that the message of Jesus is that everyone is invited to partake of life and purpose, and that once we have partaken of the spark of life we're part of life forever. The very idea of torment has been up for interpretation. A kind of physical torment makes no sense to me since we'll no longer be physical beings. Torment has been defined simply as separation from God (or eternity...or, that is, purpose), and that Grace to those so tormented is obliteration. That works for me.
There is no shortage of "ET vs. UR" debate threads on this forum. What June can't quite wrap her little 'just June' heathen mind around is the nature of what these threads are really all about: the after life.
What is the deal with the ongoing draw to what, where, when and why AFTER one dies? What about now, while one is still alive? June supposes her real question underscores the notion that while one is still walking the face of this earth as a Christian, that there would be some far more essential and far reaching issues at hand to be dealt with than "after death."
She can't help but wonder at times whether the "where one goes after death" isn't a diversion from the larger issues of real life....
(Please forgive her stupidity in this, but truly, folks: Does not the intense focus on who goes where and why after death almost serve a purpose of taking away and negating what life as a Christian is, or means, in the present?)
Help the little heathen better understand: Isn't it life as lived, now, that also counts?
I think the problem is that we have such a LIMITED amount of time here compared to eternity, and somehow or another, we have the CONCEPT of an afterlife, of eternity, unlike animals. We know we are going to die soon, and there so much beauty, complexity, and emotional attachment to others here that I assume there must be a point to it all.
People have a drive to understand the big picture. We might have an existence after death, and if we do, does it matter what we did here? That "something" seems to be encoded into most human beings and seems to flicker on and off in 99% of the individuals on this planet. I believe it means something, honestly.
Some people, ESPECIALLY those who believe a good portion of the planet is going to be set on fire for eternity, CAN'T just let it go. Can you imagine that burden?
I, for one, feel a great burden to enlighten the masses on where the ideas of eternal torment came from and why the religious leaders decided to attach it to a God of love and hope and did not or could not, for whatever reason, distinguish him from all of the pagan gods surrounding the nations of the world for the last 6000 years. Our religious leaders have made the God of the Bible 1000x worse than the pagan gods of old.
It is despicable and heart-wrenching that that we (UR) cannot tell others that God is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe!
Enough people on this planet have been tormented by the religious community, and I kind of feel like I am on a mission to halt the sickness and fear that drives Christians to do what they do. Religion and it's beliefs about the afterlife affects people's politics, their support for certain individuals that make this planet hum, and their bonds between family members and friends.
There have been plenty of false religions where people are tormented in an eternal hell, twin.spin.
That's true, many cults have it where if you leave their organization, you're going to some type of hell...but I didn't think that I had to be so specific.
That's true, many cults have it where if you leave their organization, you're going to some type of hell...but I didn't think that I had to be so specific.
I honestly think you should check out the thread on Zoroastrianism and Christianity. Babylon the Great.
First off, June wishes to thank all those who have posted on this thread thus far. She also apologizes for not having responded sooner, but it was one of those more hectic days at work, so please forgive...June was also somewhat stunned to log on and actually see so many responses, so she is now gratefully humbled by all of you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Am I understanding this correctly....your post, is about: "What's the deal with "after death?"
or about
"taking away and negating what life as a Christian is, or means, in the present?"
What are you focusing on?
Both, twin, both. June supposes she says that due to the fact that at times she can't help but wonder whether the "battle" doesn't somehow deflect and detract from the overall daily realities and issues relevant to a Christian's life...(Not that June would actually know, other than the fact that she knows we are all human; be it a UR adherent, an ET adherent, or a little heathen adherent.) In other words: Is there not more than just the "battle" waged (which for the most part is just so futile, as few, if any change something as integral to themselves as their religious beliefs due to a message board.) It simply strikes June that all too often Christians are intent on "winning the battle, but losing the war" as in reality, that is something of what it amounts to.
So much of what is so eloquently spoken about in the very Gospels that you all read (and which June has even been known to read on ocassion) gets lost amid the "battle." June sometimes wonders --to the best of her abilitly-- why it strikes her that Jesus didn't seem quite so obsessed with the whole "afterlife" issue as all of you are...Which is not to say that what He did say goes unnoticed by June. What she is saying is that for those who are intent on changing the minds of others, there is so much more that Jesus said that holds the capacity to change others. Not just who goes where, and why, upon their demise... It's just that sometimes June has to wonder whether an "Appendix" to the bible should somehow have been included, as well, given the never-ending rabid debate that she witnesses daily. June just wonders why Jesus simply stated what he did, and didn't seem quite as caught up (if you will) as the rest of you all are as regards the afterlife. Odd that to June's reading of the NT, she finds far more about how to live one's life on a sacred, day-to-day level that behooves the glory of God.
Not death. After life. --But again, June could be completely, utterly, and hopelessly "off" in her understanding of what she reads...Then again, perhaps not. Then again, perhaps we all need to "own" that aspect of what we read, understand, and why...
Please know that June has no "dog in the fight" and she most certainly is not taking sides, or accusing any side...
She's not so terribly convinced as much as everyone else seems to be that Jesus had a "side."
Hence, she just wonders about the overall dynamic...
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2
June,
Can I ask you, Can you imagine that if you were a believer in God and Jesus as the Son of God and there was an afterlife and you truly believed in that afterlife, can you honestly tell me if you would have concern, compassion, for all those who did not believe as you do? If they were to be tortured eternally would it seem just to you? ....... would it seem to clash with the fruits of the spirit love, joy, peace, patience etc?
Of course you can ask! You were kind enough to respond to June's querie, so June is more than glad to respond to yours! Now granted, it's a bit of a stretch for June to imagine herself in the shoes or mindset of what you are asking above, but the reality of the situation is that the question (as June understands it) is not all that difficult:
June would hope that in addition to "concern, compassion" she would have one other thing, as well, for those who did not believe as she did: Respect.
June would also hope that she had something else, following respect, and that would be the capacity to emulate the mindset of Christ. June imagines that she might engage in a discourse or dialogue with others regarding her beliefs, much as she does now, as a little heathen. However, if June was a Christian, she would hope that she had the ability and capacity to remember that Jesus went about doing what he did in a quite unique way. Jesus didn't aggressively go after others in his efforts to get his point across. If anything, Jesus had to be one of the most understated of beings in his modus operandi. June has an extremely difficult time imagining Jesus beating people over the head in an argumentative manner with a bible (had he had one written at the time...) Rather, he did something so simplistically radical: He said "Follow me."
~If June was a Christian, she would hope that she could somehow aspire for much the same...Jesus taught what he taught, but he essentially left it up to the individual to accept or deny/reject his teachings...
Wise person, Jesus....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
I see this is turning into another 'bash a Christian' thread. The mockery never ends
June is obviously missing something here, as she in no way, shape, or form had any intention of this thread being yet another "bash a Christian" thread. Actually, June has read some posts where members disagree with one another, but thus far, not so much "bashing." (And June is 'programmed' after all this time to be a "bashing radar device!")
June may be an atheist, but June would be the first person to tell you that in her honest opinion, there is no room for mockery when it comes to the matter at hand, as expressed in the OP. She says/includes this only by means of clarification, Finn Jarber...
Take gentle care, all!
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There is some type of 2nd chance to get your act together (or God) after death and not be judged accordingly. Examples of this are:
