ET, Annihilation, and UR (faith, doom, mention, hell)
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Sure! If we are keeping score with souls saved... and we assume that 100% of humans are affected by Adam's sin... then we look at how effective the salvation of God is... it appears that Jesus didn't conquer Adam's sin at all.. so the gift of grace really isn't able to conquer sin... right? who wins? God certainly doesn't if he only saves 10% of humans but 100% are declared sinners.
Where is it ever stated what percentage of people will be saved? The Bible I read says that the number of people saved will be an amount beyond which anyone can number. You have entirely missed the gravity of the Cross and depth of God's love, if you have not by now realized that God would claim victory if you were the only human being to choose Him and be saved. God isn't playing a numbers game. He loves you enough that He would have died for you if you were the only one who wanted salvation. It was that realization that kick started my personal relationship with Christ. When sin entered this world, 100% of the population consisted of 2 people. 100% of the population had a choice to make then, and Christ's death made the same choice available to 100% of the population since. It is a CHOICE though. Adam/Eve I believe eventually made the right choice and chose Christ in the end. I started a thread early this morning titled God's plan to Eradicate Sin, in which I shared some amazing articles talking about God's grace. I'd love to here your take on them.
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
What does loving God have to do with being saved from sin?
Loving God is all about CHOICE. We CHOOSE God by loving Him. When people CHOOSE to love sin more than God, they CHOOSE to reject the salvation that Christ died to give them. Salvation is available to 100% of humanity, and is able to overcome 100% of the sin in the life of a repentant sinner. However, God cannot forgive a person who refuses to ask forgiveness for their sins. I'm not talking about people who are not aware of their sins for it is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict people of their sins, but those that the Holy Spirit convicts of their sins, and yet they still refuse to repent of those sins they have been made aware of, then they are rejecting Christ's atoning sacrifice for their sins, and so they will suffer the consequence of their sin which is death.
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
That idea in and of itself IS universalism!....
Doesn't universalism teach that all will follow God regardless of CHOICE.
Where is it ever stated what percentage of people will be saved? The Bible I read says that the number of people saved will be an amount beyond which anyone can number. You have entirely missed the gravity of the Cross and depth of God's love, if you have not by now realized that God would claim victory if you were the only human being to choose Him and be saved. God isn't playing a numbers game. He loves you enough that He would have died for you if you were the only one who wanted salvation. It was that realization that kick started my personal relationship with Christ. When sin entered this world, 100% of the population consisted of 2 people. 100% of the population had a choice to make then, and Christ's death made the same choice available to 100% of the population since. It is a CHOICE though. Adam/Eve I believe eventually made the right choice and chose Christ in the end. I started a thread early this morning titled God's plan to Eradicate Sin, in which I shared some amazing articles talking about God's grace. I'd love to here your take on them.
But what is the end result in your mind... how many out of the 106 billion people that have ever lived are in heaven compared to the amount in hell.. who ultimately wins more souls? God or sin?
I will try to find time to check out your link. I did notice your thread.
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Loving God is all about CHOICE. We CHOOSE God by loving Him. When people CHOOSE to love sin more than God, they CHOOSE to reject the salvation that Christ died to give them.
Yet didn't adam make it so that men inherently sin? Sin nature and all? But you are saying because they have sin nature that they are actively rejecting salvation? Does Jesus defeat sin and death or not?
WE LOVE GOD BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US! (1 John 4:19)
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Salvation is available to 100% of humanity, and is able to overcome 100% of the sin in the life of a repentant sinner. However, God cannot forgive a person who refuses to ask forgiveness for their sins.
God cannot? Why not? He is God.. why can't he (if he wills all to be saved) forgive someone without cause?
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I'm not talking about people who are not aware of their sins for it is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict people of their sins, but those that the Holy Spirit convicts of their sins, and yet they still refuse to repent of those sins they have been made aware of, then they are rejecting Christ's atoning sacrifice for their sins, and so they will suffer the consequence of their sin which is death.
But everyone dies... So you are saying they will get death... so do believers.
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Doesn't universalism teach that all will follow God regardless of CHOICE.
Nope... it teaches that ALL will follow God regardless of how that happens.
For what it's worth, if June has to delete one more rude, attacking post, she's gunna start to get cranky. And if June has to get cranky due to too many deleted, rude posts, then June's crankiness will result in her having to close this thread.
But anyone who bothers to read at sites like this knows that a lot of people reject the kind of fearful,fire insurance Christianity you peddle.
So, you admit you have no idea how many walk away.
I can tell you that over 2.5 million people come to Christ every year through voluntary conversion, so unless you can prove that more then 2.5 leave Christianity, then your claim is based on pure assumption. I guess your comment "if you read sites like this, then you'd know" proves it anyway.
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I guess some people would rather preach fear than love.They must not trust that love is enough
I don't know any believers who live in fear, so I think you got it upside down. See, faith takes away the fear.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 07-10-2010 at 06:14 PM..
If he saved even one person who rejected Christ, it would make Him a liar, and that is impossible. God cannot lie.
Really?
What about Israel who killed Christ? They rejected him and had him killed yet Paul writes that all Israel will be saved ...
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
I have posted it before . On a more serious note, to me the undertones of the posts from the preachers of ET are the same as back in the dark ages . Their message does not consist of anything that lifts up the name of Jesus , extols Him , blesses Him , magnify's Him , Praises Him or Worship's Him , no not one iota , all that is reserved for their prized doctrine of ET . Also for me it's not so much troubling that they believe in ET , but that they are die hard fanatically evangelical about it . I am not saying all who believe in ET are so , but i think it's obvious on here to the open minded who are .
Exactly if ET is so real to them , the grace of God that has appeared to all men would be their message , but it's not, it's one of condemnation and fear .
They possess nothing but a bunch of well learnt doctrines and traditions of men that have deceived the masses throughout the centuries .
But there is no doubt in my mind that there as always been at least a remnant through the ages that have walked in the light they received, even when that light began to dim there was a remnant that walked in the little light they had , but thanks be to God much of that light is glowing again into the hearts of men and revealing the true identity of God and thankfully for us our true identity.
Exactly if ET is so real to them , the grace of God that has appeared to all men would be their message , but it's not, it's one of condemnation and fear .
They possess nothing but a bunch of well learnt doctrines and traditions of men that have deceived the masses throughout the centuries
It is a horribly dishonest to say someone loves hell, not to mention that it it disrespectful.
Maybe you guys should try defending your own faiths as opposed to always taking stabs at others. Just an idea.
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