Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There's no regret for that kind of sorrow. Butworldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results inspiritual death. 2 Corinthians 7:10.
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles [the obedient believer's] also the repentance that leads to life." Acts 11:18
2 Corinthians 7:10 has no word meaning "spiritual" before thanatos (death)... what version are you using? Nevermind.... NLT is the only one that adds the word "spiritual" to it...
I just don't understand why you keep saying this passage is somehow proof of annihilation.
Here is the WHOLE verse:
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. (Ezekiel 18:20)
The word used for soul in the first part of the verse is nephesh which means a breathing creature... And with the rest of the verse you can see that it is NOT talking about anything other than a person sinning will die for HIS OWN SINS.
Soul is body + spirit... the breathing creature who dies will die because of his own sin.
(See: Jeremiah 31:30)
Nothing more nothing less... and the other one?
Ezekiel 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
So... in conclusion.... the soul means living creature or person... not the 3rd part of a triune man.
Check out this passage: Matt. 16 25 For whoever wants to save his life (psuchēn) will lose it, but whoever loses his life (psuchēn) for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul (psuchēn)? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul (psuchēs)?
All the same word... life=soul... Can I make it any clearer for you?
If this is the only proof you have for annihilation... well it is no proof at all IMO but a gross misinterpretation of scripture.
Can you make it any clearer to me? NOPE, you cannot.
Life is life. Yes, the soul is life, and this is what Jesus offers us,,,life. The soul that sins, does not have life. Any questions?
And no. That is not any proof for annihilation. Trying to 'prove' this to you is pointless and fruitless. Only the Spirit can give you this. Not my job. If you are truly interested, read this. If not, don't.
Go where you are led to go. Right now, Jesus has you where He wants you. He had me there once too. But it didn't line up with the WHOLE counsel of His Word, so I was led elsewhere, but had to learn it.
You believe in the immortal soul(spirit). I do not. BIG DIFFERENCE.
God alone has this. Humans do not. He gives this to those who follow Him.
If I believed souls were immortal, then I would believe in ET.
Can you make it any clearer to me? NOPE, you cannot.
Life is life. Yes, the soul is life, and this is what Jesus offers us,,,life. The soul that sins, does not have life. Any questions?
And no. That is not any proof for annihilation. Trying to 'prove' this to you is pointless and fruitless. Only the Spirit can give you this. Not my job. If you are truly interested, read this. If not, don't.
Go where you are led to go. Right now, Jesus has you where He wants you. He had me there once too. But it didn't line up with the WHOLE counsel of His Word, so I was led elsewhere, but had to learn it.
You believe in the immortal soul(spirit). I do not. BIG DIFFERENCE.
God alone has this. Humans do not. He gives this to those who follow Him.
If I believed souls were immortal, then I would believe in ET.
I don't remember saying I believe in an immortal soul(spirit)...
So you don't understand the scripture or you purposely choose to disregard it in context? It is not saying "The soul that sins, does not have life."
Nevermind... Perhaps you will come to see that there is no separate soul/spirit later... until later....
BTW- I don't have a problem with conditional immortality.... I just have a larger pool of gift recipients in mind.
HotinAZ i agree that only the Spirit can make known the things of God to us . Has someone who did believe in eternal death for the unbeliever (without question i hasten to add), it was no doubt the Spirit of God that made known to me the truth concerning Universal reconciliation.
The moment (literally the moment) i first heard of UR (remember i was i died hard ET'er), i believed it , there were long periods of weeping , much to do with what believing in ET had turned me into (it would have been no different if i had believed in annihilation) , and it was like God had dealt me a death blow , but at the same time He began to comfort me by revealing His true nature and character.
I had a similar kind of experienced when i was involved with a group that were big into the ministry of William Branham. The Lord opened my eyes to what following that ministry had turned me into (again with much weeping) .
I have no doubt in my heart that He is Savior of all . I am convinced, fully persuaded, unmoveable , no wavering, strong in faith,staggering not , absolutely confident in Him that He is willing and Able to be the Savior of all.
I have no claim on my own faith, repentance and good works , He is behind it all . This is the main area where i disagree with christianity , because it believes all 3 of these things are their's , and this is why ET and annihilation is so easy to believe for them.
Death is the sentence. To be sentenced, you must be judged, by the Judge.
The soul that sins, dies. It doesn't say the body, it says the soul.
Hotin, Katj basically gave you the same answer I would have.
Look up nephesh, it means breathing creature or living creature and does not mean soul as in spirit, soul and body.
Nephesh is also used for animal life, so if it is a part of triune nature of man, how do you explain animal life having it?
The soul that sins dies, all have sinned and fallin short of the glory of God.
So if I was to fallow your thought to its conclusion not one person ever created would be able to be saved.
How can a person who does not know the law, sin? My question to you.
Yes a person who does not know the law can sin, but sin is not imputed unto them until the law.
You still have not showed me why you believe apollumi means being prepared to destruction. Even the definition you used does not support your understanding, so where do you get this understanding?
I just don't understand why you keep saying this passage is somehow proof of annihilation.
Here is the WHOLE verse:
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. (Ezekiel 18:20)
The word used for soul in the first part of the verse is nephesh which means a breathing creature... And with the rest of the verse you can see that it is NOT talking about anything other than a person sinning will die for HIS OWN SINS.
Soul is body + spirit... the breathing creature who dies will die because of his own sin.
(See: Jeremiah 31:30)
Nothing more nothing less... and the other one?
Ezekiel 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
So... in conclusion.... the soul means living creature or person... not the 3rd part of a triune man.
Check out this passage: Matt. 16 25 For whoever wants to save his life (psuchēn) will lose it, but whoever loses his life (psuchēn) for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul (psuchēn)? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul (psuchēs)?
All the same word... life=soul... Can I make it any clearer for you?
If this is the only proof you have for annihilation... well it is no proof at all IMO but a gross misinterpretation of scripture.
Chapter 22 is not dealing(IMO) with the next life. It is dealing with this life. Those in Christ ALREADY have access to the TOL, now. Not later. Those who are 'outside', without Christ and are sinners, defined by verse 15, do not have any way to get INTO the Kingdom Gates. It is narrow, remember.
How can you say this deals with this life, the city gates spoken of are AFTER the great white throne judgement, AFTER the new heaven and new earth, AFTER the throne of God and the lamb has been set up.
I have had others try to tell me this is during this life but they have NOTHING to support their opinion, which make what they believe just an opinion based on what they believe.
Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
These scriptures are speaking of entering into the kingdom of heaven, so let’s add that for a clearer understanding of what those scriptures are saying.
Enter ye into the kingdom of heaven by the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go into the kingdom of heaven that way.
Those dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie spoken of in Revelation 22 are those who enter the kingdom of heaven by the way of destruction.
Quote:
This is only a part of it. Not the way in. Jesus is the only way into the Kingdom, for there are none righteous, no not one.
That contradict what the scripture says, it says that if they keep His commandments they have right to the tree of life. The thing you are missing is that no one can keep His commandment without the help of the Holy Spirit, this shows that the spirit and the bride are still saying come to those without the gate.
Quote:
The invitation is open to ALL to receive Him.
True so why believe in annihilation or eternal torment? Especially given what Revelation 22 tells us of those without the gate.
Quote:
Let him that is thirsty come. These are they that seek Life giving Water found only through Jesus. They seek Him. They follow Him. They even OBEY Hiim, and His commands. These are those who are thirsty for more.
It IS free. It IS a gift. It is open to EVERYONE, no exceptions.
Again true, but you keep insisting that this takes place only in this life, yet Revelation 22 is speaking of the new heaven and new earth and this shows that people will receive Him in the next life after the great white throne judgement.
Quote:
Everyday, since the beginning.
I agree this has happened every day since the beginning but that is not what those scriptures are referring to this all take place AFTER the great white throne judgment.
Quote:
Only in chronological order written down. But the end is the invitation we ALL have. Not after death. Verse 10 was the closing statement for the prophecy given to John. The rest applies everyday, to everyone.
So that how you get around those scriptures by simply saying that verse 10 is the closing statements of the prophesy.
I can see where you are coming from Hotin, but if that is the closing of the prophesy because it says seal not the words of this prophesy what do you do with Daniel where it says seal up the vision and prophesy 9:24 and then again says seal the book in 12:4? Is all the stuff between 9:24 and 12:4 not part of the prophesy? What about the stuff that is said after 12:24? Does it not count as part of the prophesy?
Quote:
For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, norhave they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
True the dead no nothing, but when one is resurrected one is no longer dead.
I don’t believe those who enter the second death obtain the reward. They suffer the loss of the reward. That reward is to rule and reign with Christ and they missed out on it. Just because one misses out on the reward does not mean one cannot be saved, for being saved is a free gift of God, whereas; reward speaks of something received for works done.
Quote:
How can there be a part 2, when it says they don't know anything.
What part 2? many have not heard of the Gospel so how can they know anything about it? For many hearing the gospel after the resurrection will be for the first time.
2 Corinthians 7:10 has no word meaning "spiritual" before thanatos (death)... what version are you using? Nevermind.... NLT is the only one that adds the word "spiritual" to it...
Kat do you not beleive in a spiritual death?
if the spirit can or must be saved surely it can die.
if the spirit can or must be saved surely it can die.
As in spiritual blindness? I don't see how one can die spiritually when it is the breath of God which gives life.
However, I don't believe in adding words into a translation that may change the meaning overall. It is one thing to paraphrase but to simply add the word? And it's the only version that does that... Pet Peeve I guess.
This is where I differ from some people. I don't believe that we own the spirit we have. I believe it is "God-breathed" so to speak. Therefore you can accept more "God-breath" or you can be satisfied with what you have initially (spiritually immature). I think if you exercise your muscles and train your brain then you can also facilitate grown/expansion of the "God-breath" inside you. IMO, once you let that "God-breath" or "spirit" be the dominant force in your words, thoughts, and actions then you will achieve the fullness. The "eternal life." That is the spirit of love within us all.
So (and this will get me blasted most likely), I don't see salvation as anything required BY GOD but that God shows: IF we overcome our own flesh... we will SEE life abundantly.
Last edited by katjonjj; 07-19-2010 at 11:33 AM..
Reason: spelling
As in spiritual blindness? I don't see how one can die spiritually when it is the breath of God which gives life.
However, I don't believe in adding words into a translation that may change the meaning overall. It is one thing to paraphrase but to simply add the word? And it's the only version that does that... Pet Peeve I guess.
This is where I differ from some people. I don't believe that we own the spirit we have. I believe it is "God-breathed" so to speak. Therefore you can accept more "God-breath" or you can be satisfied with what you have initially (spiritually immature). I think if you exercise your muscles and train your brain then you can also facilitate grown/expansion of the "God-breath" inside you. IMO, once you let that "God-breath" or "spirit" be the dominant force in your words, thoughts, and actions then you will achieve the fullness. The "eternal life." That is the spirit of love within us all.
So (and this will get me blasted most likely), I don't see salvation as anything required BY GOD but that God shows: IF we overcome our own flesh... we will SEE life abundantly.
IMO the spirit/God breath is different then OUR spirit.
When God breathes His Spirit into us we become a new creature in Christ.
Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Now Gods breath is the brimstone (Is.30:33) spoken of in the second death and here it is called the BREATH OF LIFE. Now why would that which is seen as part of the make up of the second death be called the breath of life?
To understand why a part of the second death is called the breath of life let’s look at the meaning of the word BREATH.
It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.
When God breathed the BREATH OF LIFE unto MAN it was for the destruction of the MAN that he was by birthing in the MAN of dust Jesus Christ.
It is not our spirit that returns to God who gave it upon mans death it is His Spirit.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
This scripture is not talking about all men, it is only speaking about those who do not accept Christ in this life,.
This is why Jesus says if we beleive in Him we will never die, because His Spirit will never leave us,as it is our breathe of life or birth of Christ in us.
This is why in the resurrection He breathes again upon the slain
Concerning the dry bones we read
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Anyway that my two cents
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
