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, Why is God reduced to eternally torturing someone who doesn't acknowledge Jesus in this life? Have you ever really considered this?
For the sake of consideration, we will not include Satan (if he is a true separate entity, and that doesn't figure into this discussion) or the demons or fallen angels and we will say free will exists (tho I do not believe this).
If the Bible says it, it must be so.
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For me the issue has become, (now that I understand what UR is about) the UR package. Eternal Torment is indicated in the Bible, but let's just toss that one aside. Even if they are right about ET, and that would be fine with me, there are still some major errors in CU teachings that trouble me.
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How come UR folk say Satan is not a real being? Have you ever read Job, chapter 1?
6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." 9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." 12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
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And what's this nonsense that you can die, having rejected Christ in this life, and still end up reconciled to God? How many people will think they will fine with God without accepting Christ in this life only to be horrified at death to find out the opposite.
John 3:36 is fairly clear as one example.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Hebrews 9:27 says this life is where you have your chance.
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment
Jude says: 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
And Revelation 20:10-15: 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[a] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[b] 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Purifying fire? I think not. Why would the devil, a fallen angel be in the same fire as people whose names were not in the book of life?
Mr5150, have you honestly studied the possibility of translation issues in our English bibles, especially with the words "eternal", "everlasting", "forever and ever", and "hell"?
Are you aware there are properly translated English bibles that do not use those words at all?
**********************
For me the issue has become, (now that I understand what UR is about) the UR package. Eternal Torment is indicated in the Bible, but let's just toss that one aside. Even if they are right about ET, and that would be fine with me, there are still some major errors in CU teachings that trouble me.
****************
How come UR folk say Satan is not a real being? Have you ever read Job, chapter 1?
6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." 9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." 12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
*********************
And what's this nonsense that you can die, having rejected Christ in this life, and still end up reconciled to God? How many people will think they will fine with God without accepting Christ in this life only to be horrified at death to find out the opposite.
John 3:36 is fairly clear as one example.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Hebrews 9:27 says this life is where you have your chance.
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment
Jude says: 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
And Revelation 20:10-15: 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[a] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[b] 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Purifying fire? I think not. Why would the devil, a fallen angel be in the same fire as people whose names were not in the book of life?
The key to this understanding is to see what we can observe in all people Christian or otherwise.
There is not one observed human being who fought Satan as a "being" all humans battle the conflict within themselves.
Even Job battled from within.
Any repenting of sin, any decision to do a good or bad thing, any change is ALWAYS observed to be a change or conflict or battle within the person.
This is true for everyone, you might describe what takes place differently than someone else, but never have you battled a being outside of yourself.
IMHO you are simply reading your ET beliefs into these verses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
And what's this nonsense that you can die, having rejected Christ in this life, and still end up reconciled to God? How many people will think they will fine with God without accepting Christ in this life only to be horrified at death to find out the opposite.
John 3:36 is fairly clear as one example.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
If the way you read this is true, then none of us have eternal life because we were all nonbelievers at one point. Were you a nonbeliever once? Then "God's wrath remained on you". Yet here you stand now as a believer. So you are living proof that a nonbeliever who had God's wrath remain on him can in fact become a believer who will have eternal life.
Quote:
Hebrews 9:27 says this life is where you have your chance.
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment
Hebrews 9:27 no where says "this life is where you have your chance". It simply says people will be judged after they die.
"judgement" does not equal "eternal torment"
Quote:
Jude says: 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today in this so-called "eternal" fire? I know you believe the occupants of those two cities are in fire right now, but that is not what the verse says.
Quote:
And Revelation 20:10-15: 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[a] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[b] 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Purifying fire? I think not. Why would the devil, a fallen angel be in the same fire as people whose names were not in the book of life?
Regarding Satan/the devil - I believe it is not as simple as saying he is an evil bad guy who deserves/needs to burn in fire forever. Is Satan physical? Is he thrown into physical fire? Or is it spirtual fire? Furthermore why can't this be symbolic of the carnal/satan nature being destroyed?
Do you think Satan was an accident? Do you believe he was once a perfect angel called lucifer, and this perfect angel became the worst being possible? That is a contradiction in terms. This is a broad topic if you want to get into that.
Suffice it to say that throughout the bible, fire is used as a symbol of God's consuming love, His purifying and refining nature - it symbolizes the trials and tribulations we go through that make us better. So why, in the book of Revelations, which is a book filled with symbols, should we believe the lake of fire is simply fire meant for torment/torture (physical, spiritual, or otherwise)?
I believe the bible too Mr5150, and I don't think there is a physical lake of fire somewhere where people spend eternity in agony, because that is not what these scriptures are talking about.
We must remember....a little child can understand this. If God said forever, it must mean forever.
But that's just the thing - God did not say "forever". He said "olam", or "aionios", or other variants.
"Forever" is man's translation of God's word into English, and not all men have translated it as "Forever". Furthermore it doesn't even make sense in many places that it is translated as "Forever" - in the sense of endlessness.
Mr5150, have you honestly studied the possibility of translation issues in our English bibles, especially with the words "eternal", "everlasting", "forever and ever", and "hell"?
Are you aware there are properly translated English bibles that do not use those words at all?
That was another issue I have with UR teachings: you can't trust the major translations.
The Jehovah Witnesses have that same teaching so they wrote their own translation of the Bible to match up with their doctrine-The New World translation. Not really the way to go IMO.
IMHO you are simply reading your ET beliefs into these verses.
I believe the bible too Mr5150, and I don't think there is a physical lake of fire somewhere where people spend eternity in agony, because that is not what these scriptures are talking about.
That was another issue I have with UR teachings: you can't trust the major translations.
The Jehovah Witnesses have that same teaching so they wrote their own translation of the Bible to match up with their doctrine-The New World translation. Not really the way to go IMO.
I can agree with this, I do not believe the issue rests with translational arguments to where a translated word must be one or the other in order to be reading a "correct" translation.
With that said.
Do you discredit translations that do not contain the words hell , everlasting, forever, forever and ever?
I certainly do not need to argue that a translation is "wrong" so if your argument against the biblical concept that God will save all mankind and bring them to the knowledge of truth as stated in 1 timothy 2:4 hinges on this idea then it offers nothing for me to consider in terms of believing God won't do what 1 Timothy 2:4 states.
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