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Thanks for replying, Sciotamicks. Yeah that pretty much answers my question for you. I had no idea youre a full prederist, and it is sounds like you believe in annihilationism and don't believe UR believers who keep the core beliefs are damned. Believing in full prederism I'm sure you get plenty of heretic claims coming at you yourself from the mainstream and its good to hear your here for eschatological doctrine correction rather than a race to save their souls like the people on street corners (I do wish I had one of their bullhorns at times those ;p ). I understand alot of the reasoning behind annililationism and even full prederism to an extent, but I'm still studying them in full. I find annililationism alot more philosophically logicial than ET at the moment, but even that I still have some issues with and I'm not going to mention at the moment as I'm still not finished studying as much as I would like (and its really late here). Anyways, thanks for your clarification and I may join in again sometime soon if I feel compelled to. Peace out for now.
Jrhockney,
I reccommend Edward Fudge - The Fire that Consumes. he is a post mil, but he pretty much proved that Conditional Immortality is what the scriptures teach, from beginningto end. A good study nonetheless for anyone, that is researching ET and others paradigms including UR.
Peace.
"The false teachings of one age, become the orthodoxy of another."
Conditional Immortality
Soul Sleep
Annihilation
Eternal Torment or Damnation
Fallen Angels
Satan, the Anti-Christ.
Hades, an underworld based on mythologies of Hell.
Demons and Devils
Rapture theories
Trinity theories
The Great Tribulation or End of time theories
Blood Sacrificing; to appease a murderous and vindictive Spirit, or wrath of God.
(Just to identify a few)
It’s no wonder that my Spirit groans within, to see creation set free from the minds of men; and their critical thinking. And, please don’t quote Scripture, as I have over twenty translations, have studied the various languages for over thirty-eight years, including; Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. I also speak five other languages, and not one of them is Gerber. Now that’s an abstract thought apart from reality.
It’s no small anomaly that many have not matured, thinking ourselves to be wise. Truth is, we are not in need that man, teach us, as true wisdom comes from the SPIRIT.
"The false teachings of one age, become the orthodoxy of another."
Conditional Immortality
Soul Sleep
Annihilation
Eternal Torment or Damnation
Fallen Angels
Satan, the Anti-Christ.
Hades, an underworld based on mythologies of Hell.
Demons and Devils
Rapture theories
Trinity theories
The Great Tribulation or End of time theories
Blood Sacrificing; to appease a murderous and vindictive Spirit, or wrath of God.
(Just to identify a few)
It’s no wonder that my Spirit groans within, to see creation set free from the minds of men; and their critical thinking. And, please don’t quote Scripture, as I have over twenty translations, have studied the various languages for over thirty-eight years, including; Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. I also speak five other languages, and not one of them is Gerber. Now that’s an abstract thought apart from reality.
It’s no small anomaly that many have not matured, thinking ourselves to be wise. Truth is, we are not in need that man, teach us, as true wisdom comes from the SPIRIT.
Not one of your posts have been the case in point as you are presenting yourself above. I too speak five languages, and have studied all of the above and more, and I continuously produce linguistical evidence for the topics I engage in, all you have produced is mostly, philosophical phrases that have no bearing on the scriputre. It would behoove you from now on, to do so, so that we can decide whether your post above, was truthful or not.
Not one of your posts have been the case in point as you are presenting yourself above. I too speak five languages, and have studied all of the above and more, and I continuously produce linguistical evidence for the topics I engage in, all you have produced is mostly, philosophical phrases that have no bearing on the scriputre. It would behoove you from now on, to do so, so that we can decide whether your post above, was truthful or not.
Sciotamicks,
You appear to only desire that of a round of a verbal or written one-upmanship. As I have said, "After reading through this thread, it would be futile to expose the minds of men who deny the truth." Especially, when you conceive that we, as in you will decide on whether there is truth in my philosophical phrases or post based on yours or others; understanding of the Scriptures.
Although you are probably correct, it would be proper or beneficial to post according to your rules; however, I have done this in decades past and see nothing more than a broken record that repeats itself, time and time again, thus, the reason for the so called "Philosophical" quotes are to let people think for themselves for the most part. If you disagree with them, or with that in the post, than by all means reject it holding on to that which you personally believe. Besides, I am not really impressed with your critical explanation or interpretation in "Settling the Eisegesis" of men, rather than the meaning of the text. Simply speaking, man’s ways and thoughts, past and presently are really insignificant. Although I do believe, we all have the capacity of reasoning, not to mention that of common sense or knowing right from wrong. I will consider entering the arena once more without making any promises to do so. But don’t hold your breath, "Been there, done that."
"Reading and understanding the Bible without the Spirit of Truth is somewhat like eating without chewing; you just can’t swallow it."
You appear to only desire that of a round of a verbal or written one-upmanship. As I have said, "After reading through this thread, it would be futile to expose the minds of men who deny the truth." Especially, when you conceive that we, as in you will decide on whether there is truth in my philosophical phrases or post based on yours or others; understanding of the Scriptures.
Although you are probably correct, it would be proper or beneficial to post according to your rules; however, I have done this in decades past and see nothing more than a broken record that repeats itself, time and time again, thus, the reason for the so called "Philosophical" quotes are to let people think for themselves for the most part. If you disagree with them, or with that in the post, than by all means reject it holding on to that which you personally believe. Besides, I am not really impressed with your critical explanation or interpretation in "Settling the Eisegesis" of men, rather than the meaning of the text. Simply speaking, man’s ways and thoughts, past and presently are really insignificant. Although I do believe, we all have the capacity of reasoning, not to mention that of common sense or knowing right from wrong. I will consider entering the arena once more without making any promises to do so. But don’t hold your breath, "Been there, done that."
"Reading and understanding the Bible without the Spirit of Truth is somewhat like eating without chewing; you just can’t swallow it."
Are you inferring that nay of us here, regardless of whatever view, have no spirit? This appears to be bearing false witness against people who dearly love Christ. You should rethink your statements. Also, it doesn't really interest me whether you are satisfied or not, that is not the point made here in this thread. I know, for a fact, that predominantly anyone whom I debate with here at CD, will not be convinced. It is SOLELY and universally about the one who lurks, the one who reads, searching for the truth in the discussions we have, that matters to me. These words will be here as long as the Internet is, and all it takes is a simple search for these subjects, and CD falls into the first few pages of those search defaults. That is all I care about. I have no interest in your interpretation or your conclusions, as it is to me, and many others, simply eisegesis.
You appear to only desire that of a round of a verbal or written one-upmanship. As I have said, "After reading through this thread, it would be futile to expose the minds of men who deny the truth." Especially, when you conceive that we, as in you will decide on whether there is truth in my philosophical phrases or post based on yours or others; understanding of the Scriptures.
Although you are probably correct, it would be proper or beneficial to post according to your rules; however, I have done this in decades past and see nothing more than a broken record that repeats itself, time and time again, thus, the reason for the so called "Philosophical" quotes are to let people think for themselves for the most part. If you disagree with them, or with that in the post, than by all means reject it holding on to that which you personally believe. Besides, I am not really impressed with your critical explanation or interpretation in "Settling the Eisegesis" of men, rather than the meaning of the text. Simply speaking, man’s ways and thoughts, past and presently are really insignificant. Although I do believe, we all have the capacity of reasoning, not to mention that of common sense or knowing right from wrong. I will consider entering the arena once more without making any promises to do so. But don’t hold your breath, "Been there, done that."
"Reading and understanding the Bible without the Spirit of Truth is somewhat like eating without chewing; you just can’t swallow it."
I hope this is not an intent to withdraw from debate with the dogmatists, Jerwade . . . your intellect and perspicacity is a rarity here. The lurkers will be the losers if you do. The dogmatists are very dogmatic in their presentation of the "precepts and doctrines of men" ignoring the very Spirit of God within. Sciota is a genuine believer in Christ . . . but his understanding has been twisted by his mistaken reliance on the words "written in ink" and interpreted by his teachers. If only he would rely on what God has "written in our hearts" and on the Holy Spirit within. Unfortunately, his views place him among the true religious bigots here, like Mike et al., with no love in their hearts for ALL humankind. They are elitists, separatists, etc. We cannot let them rant and rave without rebuttal . . . if we care at all about those they might influence wrongly.
Let's settle this eisegetical nonsense. Let the readers of the forum decide whether this really means God WILL have all men come to salvation and the knowledge of the truth shall we?
1 Timothy 2:4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν. who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth. Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Matthew 16:24 τότε ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ· εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἐλθεῖν, ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Matthew 27:43 πέποιθεν ἐπὶ τὸν θεόν, ῥυσάσθω νῦν εἰ θέλει αὐτόν· εἶπεν γὰρ ὅτι θεοῦ εἰμι υἱός.
He trusts in God. Let God deliver him now, if he wants him; for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Mark 8:34 καὶ προσκαλεσάμενος τὸν ὄχλον σὺν τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἐλθεῖν / ἀκολουθεῖν, ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
He called the multitude to himself with his disciples, and said to them, "Whoever wants to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Mark 9:35 καὶ καθίσας ἐφώνησεν τοὺς δώδεκα καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· εἴ τις θέλει πρῶτος εἶναι, ἔσται πάντων ἔσχατος καὶ πάντων διάκονος.
He sat down, and called the twelve; and he said to them, "If any man wants to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all."
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Luke 5:39 [καὶ] οὐδεὶς πιὼν παλαιὸν θέλει νέον· λέγει γάρ· ὁ παλαιὸς χρηστός ἐστιν.
No man having drunk old wine immediately desires new, for he says, 'The old is better.'"
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Luke 9:23 ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας· εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ' ἡμέραν καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
He said to all, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Luke 13:31 ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ ὥρᾳ προσῆλθάν τινες Φαρισαῖοι λέγοντες αὐτῷ· ἔξελθε καὶ πορεύου ἐντεῦθεν ὅτι Ἡρῴδης θέλει σε ἀποκτεῖναι.
On that same day, some Pharisees came, saying to him, "Get out of here, and go away, for Herod wants to kill you."
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
John 3:8 τὸ πνεῦμα ὅπου θέλει πνεῖ καὶ τὴν φωνὴν αὐτοῦ ἀκούεις, ἀλλ' οὐκ οἶδας πόθεν ἔρχεται καὶ ποῦ ὑπάγει· οὕτως ἐστὶν πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ πνεύματος.
The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don't know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
John 5:21 ὥσπερ γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ἐγείρει τοὺς νεκροὺς καὶ ζῳοποιεῖ, οὕτως καὶ ὁ υἱὸς οὓς θέλει ζῳοποιεῖ.
For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he desires.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Acts 2:12 ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο / διηπόρουν, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες· τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
They were all amazed, and were perplexed, saying one to another, "What does this mean?"
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Acts 17:20 ξενίζοντα γάρ τινα εἰσφέρεις εἰς τὰς ἀκοὰς ἡμῶν· βουλόμεθα οὖν γνῶναι τίνα θέλει ταῦτα εἶναι.
For you bring certain strange things to our ears. We want to know therefore what these things mean."
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Romans 9:18 ἄρα οὖν ὃν θέλει ἐλεεῖ ὃν δὲ θέλει σκληρύνει.
So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Romans 9:18 ἄρα οὖν ὃν θέλει ἐλεεῖ ὃν δὲ θέλει σκληρύνει.
So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
1 Corinthians 7:36 Εἰ δέ τις ἀσχημονεῖν ἐπὶ τὴν παρθένον αὐτοῦ νομίζει, ἐὰν ᾖ ὑπέρακμος καὶ οὕτως ὀφείλει γίνεσθαι, ὃ θέλει ποιείτω οὐχ ἁμαρτάνει, γαμείτωσαν.
But if any man thinks that he is behaving inappropriately toward his virgin, if she is past the flower of her age, and if need so requires, let him do what he desires. He doesn't sin. Let them marry.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
1 Corinthians 7:39 Γυνὴ δέδεται ἐφ' ὅσον χρόνον ζῇ ὁ ἀνὴρ αὐτῆς· ἐὰν δὲ κοιμηθῇ ὁ ἀνήρ, ἐλευθέρα ἐστὶν ᾧ θέλει γαμηθῆναι μόνον ἐν κυρίῳ.
A wife is bound by law for as long as her husband lives; but if the husband is dead, she is free to be married to whoever she desires, only in the Lord.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
2 Thessalonians 3:10 καὶ γὰρ ὅτε ἦμεν πρὸς ὑμᾶς, τοῦτο παρηγγέλλομεν ὑμῖν ὅτι, εἴ τις οὐ θέλει ἐργάζεσθαι μηδὲ ἐσθιέτω.
For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: "If anyone will not work, neither let him eat."
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Revelation 2:21 καὶ ἔδωκα αὐτῇ χρόνον ἵνα μετανοήσῃ καὶ οὐ θέλει μετανοῆσαι ἐκ τῆς πορνείας αὐτῆς.
I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Revelation 11:5 καὶ εἴ τις αὐτοὺς θέλει ἀδικῆσαι πῦρ ἐκπορεύεται ἐκ τοῦ στόματος αὐτῶν καὶ κατεσθίει τοὺς ἐχθροὺς αὐτῶν· καὶ εἴ τις θελήσῃ αὐτοὺς ἀδικῆσαι, οὕτως δεῖ αὐτὸν ἀποκτανθῆναι.
If anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies. If anyone desires to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
It appears all you universalists have got it all wrong.
Bye Bye universalist paradigm of 1 Tim 2:4.
I rest my case, once again.
But there is more...as we will see in this thread.
God desires all to be saved, but He know all will not be saved because of their rejection of His Son. Let's not add God's elect into the mix too, and the debate gets to rolling even faster.
Are you inferring that nay of us here, regardless of whatever view, have no spirit? This appears to be bearing false witness against people who dearly love Christ. You should rethink your statements. Also, it doesn't really interest me whether you are satisfied or not, that is not the point made here in this thread. I know, for a fact, that predominantly anyone whom I debate with here at CD, will not be convinced. It is SOLELY and universally about the one who lurks, the one who reads, searching for the truth in the discussions we have, that matters to me. These words will be here as long as the Internet is, and all it takes is a simple search for these subjects, and CD falls into the first few pages of those search defaults. That is all I care about. I have no interest in your interpretation or your conclusions, as it is to me, and many others, simply eisegesis.
You assert, proclaim, and declare publicly within the realm of the internet, if one desires to search; the pridefulness of your own nature, subtly twisting what others say while you switch and bait them, a genuine tactic of one who is self-ordained. Highly doubtful, that it’s solely for the lurkers as you call them, because you appear to be stroking your own ego. This was taken from your first post with the word desire, being underlined by you.
1 Timothy 2:4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν. who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
"An active, ongoing result of a previous action."
I am, that being God or SPIRIT "who" is being referenced to in the third person within that of an activepresent tense, an ongoing result of a previous action (that of the Christ), and in the ongoing result of that action; desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth. The action is indicative, or that of being real. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent, or probable, nor imperative on the subjects response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful, that the man might come to this salvation and knowledge, as in your perception, "Oh, that man might seek his face and live, if only he would believe." And it is not that of passive-middle, either.
"You, Lord, have the words of eternal life, not man."
Yes, I am saying this in the form of second person, is it not the truth?
I do not have time presently to explain all this to those you regard as lurkers, but did attempt to put it in a format to which any person would understand. By the way God our Savior is singular, not that it has anything to do with that above, and his desire leaves only one ongoing result; and it will happen for each individual because of the SPIRITS LOVE FOR ALL HUMANITY and that of the SON.
(What part of ALL, the many, do people not understand?)
I am working eighty-four hours a week, and I really have no interest in debates, neither do I have an ego to comfort. Although, I do see MysticPhD’s sentiments, which I can greatly appreciate.
You appear to only desire that of a round of a verbal or written one-upmanship. As I have said, "After reading through this thread, it would be futile to expose the minds of men who deny the truth." Especially, when you conceive that we, as in you will decide on whether there is truth in my philosophical phrases or post based on yours or others; understanding of the Scriptures.
Although you are probably correct, it would be proper or beneficial to post according to your rules; however, I have done this in decades past and see nothing more than a broken record that repeats itself, time and time again, thus, the reason for the so called "Philosophical" quotes are to let people think for themselves for the most part. If you disagree with them, or with that in the post, than by all means reject it holding on to that which you personally believe. Besides, I am not really impressed with your critical explanation or interpretation in "Settling the Eisegesis" of men, rather than the meaning of the text. Simply speaking, man’s ways and thoughts, past and presently are really insignificant. Although I do believe, we all have the capacity of reasoning, not to mention that of common sense or knowing right from wrong. I will consider entering the arena once more without making any promises to do so. But don’t hold your breath, "Been there, done that."
"Reading and understanding the Bible without the Spirit of Truth is somewhat like eating without chewing; you just can’t swallow it."
Mystic is right...sharing is such an important aspect of one's belief...substantial ones are rare and far between...
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