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Everyone speaking of hell is speaking outside of the religion that speaks about it. It isn't good enough to know there is no hell, a person should be able to explain each scripture that refers to hell, every scripture about hell is referring to the end of the feast of Tabernacles, people are reading idioms about the temple and the feasts of the temple and because they don't know those feasts, they don't get the idioms.
Those parables are mysteries to people who don't know the comings and goings of the temple, they don't know the worship system of God they are speaking of. They don't know traditions, rituals or the duties and functions of priests, and all this is key in understanding parables and idioms FOUNDED IN JUDAISM.
Everything Jesus said pertains to traditions, rituals and idioms in Judaism, the religion Jesus practiced.
Why don't we study the source? Why don't we study the religion Jesus loved and practiced so we can know what he was teaching?
Dear Hannibal,
You bring up a very salient point. Modern Day Christians would benefit greatly from studying from the Hebrews and the Hebraic way of thinking.
But one thing to keep in mind, the Jews and the leaders of the Jews, rejected Jesus while Jesus was alive. And they continued to reject him after the resurrection. Hebrew thinking will only get you to the foot of the cross, and then one has to give up Hebrew thinking in order to follow Jesus by carrying a Roman cross and walking a narrow path.
I personally have benefited greatly by the wisdom and teaching of the Old Testament and from Messianic Christians who elucidate the New Covenant thru Hebrew lenses.
I recently read Wiese's book 23 Minutes in Hell and couldn't help but write him a few lines. I truly was not expecting to get a response, but I did. The response seemed more like a marketing tool than anything else. I'll let you be the judge. I welcome any and all users on this forum to answer the questions that I posed to Bill in my letter. I asked some very specific questions, and did not get the response I was looking for. I value any and all responses that people could provide. My letter went as follows:
Hello Bill,
I write to you today not as an enemy of Christianity, but as a person that struggles with his faith. To begin, I will give a brief history of myself. I was raised in a die-hard Christian home. As a youth, I was raised in the church, and I attended AWANA's for many years, ultimately achieving the Timothy Trophy before leaving the program. I attended Calvary Bible Church in Burbank throughout my childhood. The current pastor is a person you might be familiar with, Dr. Jack Hughes. But in the end, my mother was so hardcore that she diverted me away from religion. As an adult, I still went to church, but not for the right reasons. I went out of obligation, not because it captivated my interest or because I wanted to grow with my knowledge of the Lord. I have said the sinners prayer many times in my life, but felt no change. I never understood people's fascination with going to church. I never "wanted" to be there. It seemed like an unwanted task verses a desired event. I have prayed many times that God just put the "Vulcan Mind Melt" on me so that I can appreciate the lifestyle that a "true" Christian does. I have never experienced any kind of change in attitude or desire to walk the walk. I bought your book for $13 dollars because the title caught my interest at the supermarket.
I am now beginning to believe that I have the tendencies of a Deist (verses a Monotheist). I believe that God created the universe, but has since washed his hands of his affairs with humans. What else can possibly explain the atrocities that we see in daily life? Just recently, a strong Christian entity in my town lost his son in a car accident. Why would God allow this to happen to a dedicated Christian man, while evil people thrive in every aspect of their lives? I'm so tired of the "You just gotta have faith" mentality. Is this how God rewards his faithful? Why did God allow YOU to have this experience of Hell? Would it not make infinitely more sense to drop that kind of bomb on a wildly popular devout atheist the likes of Christopher Hitchens or Bill Maher, who control the publicity side of the Atheistic fight? They have mega-millions of unsaved followers. Don't you think that would have been a much more realistic approach to the problem? I mean, after all, he is an omniscient God, yes? What makes you think that people will believe you more than any other hellfire and brimstone preacher? If God really wanted to make an impact, he would have allowed an extreme disbeliever this revelation, not you. Heck, I wish that I could experience what you did, as it would surely change my life. You see, I believe in things that I can feel, taste, smell, touch, and understand. The Trinity is one of the major things that does not fall into that catagory for me, amongst many other pieces of Christian doctrine.
I have watched people struggle with faith in God throughout their lives. They try so hard, yet fail in the end. I crunched some numbers recently. There are 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet. There is roughly an equal ammount of Hindus and Buddhists. That right there is half of the worlds population. They say that there are roughly 2 billion "Chistians" on the planet. This, of course, includes many faiths that are not going to Heaven according to Biblical definitions of Christianity, such as Mormons, JW's, and Catholics. That leaves 2 billion people to be accounted for, which are "other" faiths and atheists and agnostics. I last read that 70% of Americans identify with Christianity. We all know, though, that the TRUE number is roughly 20%, if that, per the Bible's definition of "Christianity". We are nowhere near being a "Christian" nation in the U.S. That would mean that, in an optimistic estimate, only 1/14 of the worlds population at any given time in the history of our civilization is going to make it into the "Kingdom of God". That would be roughly 500 million out of 7 billion people. I have a hard time believing that a "loving" God would damn 13/14 of his population to hell. And if this is really true, this is not a God that I feel I can associate with, nor want to spend eternity with. If He was truly omniscient, He would have known at the time of creaton what his creation would divert to, and if he was truly "loving", he would have put a countermeasure in place. Remember, according to the 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet, you're the one going to hell. Now, I'm not trying to stand up for Islam. I'm just stating a point. They were brought onto this earth knowing only Islam. Who is correct by telling them they're wrong. This is all they know. This is just one example.
It seems so simple for "Christians". Jesus is the "Be all and end all" of discussion. There is no other. All other religions are going to eternal damnation except for them, right? I'm sorry, as this just does not "compute" with me. I cannot hold logical debate with my mother, as she ends all discussions with me when she gets flustered. She proves the validity of the Bible with the Bible, and that ends all arguments as far as she is concerned. Once complex issues enter the equation, she ends the conversation, as it is a threat to her belief system.
I could write thirty pages on why I struggle with my faith. Unfortunately, I am a fairly busy individual that regrets he does not have the time to do so. I am not naive enough to believe that I will get a response to this e-mail, but if you choose to respond, I thank you in advance. Any "advice" that you can give before I completely convert to "the dark side" would be appreciated.
Thank You,
Mark (Oregon)
And the following is the response that I got from Bill's wife Annette:
Thanks for writing. Most of your questions are addressed in Bill’s new book, “23 Questions about hell†which comes with a bonus DVD. If you don’t want to spend the $10-15 for the book/DVD, I’m sure you can read it while at Wal-mart or a bookstore. We encourage you to get scriptural information first, before falsely accusing God of being unfair. Mark Twain even said, “We’re all ignorant, it’s just about different things.†Hosea 4:6 says, “My people perish for a lack of knowledge… because they have rejected knowledge (God’s Word).
Annette
Dear Ditchlights,
Greetings. I am relatively new to forums and this format of discussion. I came across your post and have been reading through some of the responses. Most responses are terse and tangential to your letter. Some attempt to address the questions that you pose and here I will attempt to do so as well. I am a Christian and will speak from only my own experience and understanding. I hope that it can be of some benefit to you and to any who may read this. I will probably only attempt a few of your questions per post. Also, I read the Bible regularly. And I have read Bill Wiese's book, "23 Minutes in Hell."
1. "I am now beginning to believe that I have the tendencies of a Deist (verses a Monotheist). I believe that God created the universe, but has since washed his hands of his affairs with humans. What else can possibly explain the atrocities that we see in daily life?"
This is a good question. Can I rephrase this question in 2 ways? How can we explain evil if God is good?
and Why do bad things happen to good people?
Would this be a fair rendering of your question?
As I understand it, there is a hierarchy of what is good and what is evil.
What if the top ethic of good is love. And what if a necessity to have love is free will.
What if a consequence of free will is that love is genuine and rejection of love is also genuine. And that rejection of love can lead to hate and murder and greed and all forms of one person harming another person.
Well, that is how I understand it. God wants us to choose love and he wants it so much that he is willing to accept our rejection of him and of each other.
2. "Is this how God rewards his faithful?"
This makes me think of the 2 men who were hanging on crosses on either side of Jesus. One of the men says to Jesus, "Save yourself and save us as well."
The other man says to him, "You and I deserve this punishment, but this man did nothing wrong. Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Which of these 2 men had faith? They both acknowledge Jesus as someone special and hope that Jesus can save them. They both have an expectation of salvation. What is the difference?
The main difference is that the first man wanted all the rewards in this life.
While the 2nd man was willing to wait to receive his rewards after this life.
Jesus answered the 2nd man by saying, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise."
Surely, some rewards will be received by the faithful in this life: peace, hope, faith, fellowship.
But the greater rewards are stored up in heaven for those who love him.
3....ok that's probably enough for now. Hope this has been helpful. let me know if it has.
23 minutes in hell? why not 30 minutes...why not one hour? why not 5 hours?? God can do anything,right?
oh,but 23 minutes makes it sound so techinical!
obviously as lie,starting with the title.
Mate, a lot of us do actually look at the time.
I'm not that surprised by it.
Ironically, Angelica Zambrano spent 23 hours in Hell:
You bring up a very salient point. Modern Day Christians would benefit greatly from studying from the Hebrews and the Hebraic way of thinking.
But one thing to keep in mind, the Jews and the leaders of the Jews, rejected Jesus while Jesus was alive. And they continued to reject him after the resurrection. Hebrew thinking will only get you to the foot of the cross, and then one has to give up Hebrew thinking in order to follow Jesus by carrying a Roman cross and walking a narrow path.
I personally have benefited greatly by the wisdom and teaching of the Old Testament and from Messianic Christians who elucidate the New Covenant thru Hebrew lenses.
Shalom,
Brother Steve
Dear Steve, Jesus DID not come offering a betrothal to a Jew to marry a Jew to become a Jew, Jesus came looking for the lost sheep of Israel, NOT JEWS.
Jesus came adding Gentiles TO JEWS, Jesus came looking for the sheep of the lost house of Israel known as the prodigal nation. Paul is always explaining about the lost sheep of Israel that he was a member of, his people were lost because of disbelief, because they called the Torah a strange thing and involved themselves in pagan holy days.
Jews of Judah NEVER left God, they stayed home with the father, but Israel disrespected the law in herding swine and they became as dead men until they come back to the brother and the father.
Christians lack knowledge of the history of the two kingdoms, and everywhere they see the name,'' Israel,'' they think of Jews when Jews were never a part of the house of Israel. God writes HIS LAWS in the hearts of the lost sheep of Israel while Jews already have the law.
Jesus came to ADD to the already saved CHOSEN people, Jews need no betrothal to a Jew to become a Jew, they ARE the sons.
Gentiles all come as submissive females to the Jew in order to become one with Jews, does it appear to you that Christians have married the Jews and become one with Jews in the same religion AS IF they have been added to the holy CHOSEN nation? In the beginning, Gentiles were added to the chosen people, this is NO LONGER TRUE. Christians no longer come under the covenant of Israel and Judah, because Gentiles no longer become Israel to stand as co heirs in the same family. Now Christians have a covenant with Noah, not with Jesus, the covenant is specific, and there are simply no Gentiles in the covenant Jesus brought, there is only a covenant to Gentiles who convert to God's religion, and that is not what Christians do today, Christians don't practice the same religion Jesus practiced, not even close.
23 minutes in hell? why not 30 minutes...why not one hour? why not 5 hours?? God can do anything,right?
oh,but 23 minutes makes it sound so techinical!
Here's what I have read: it wasn't Jesus who took Bill to wherever he went. It was satan masquerading as Jesus who wanted to malign Jesus' character by making Jesus appear to be this cold-hearted, ruthless creep who subjects people to the worst torture simply for slighting him by not accepting him as their savior. Remember what Paul said:
"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." 2Corinthians 11:14
Here's what I have read: it wasn't Jesus who took Bill to wherever he went. It was satan masquerading as Jesus who wanted to malign Jesus' character by making Jesus appear to be this cold-hearted, ruthless creep who subjects people to the worst torture simply for slighting him by not accepting him as their savior. Remember what Paul said:
"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." 2Corinthians 11:14
That is because you keep listening to Christian ideas about a concept in Judaism. Christians do not, and cannot speak on Satan or hell because they don't represent the religion where the concept comes from. Christians don't have the information to understand what they are reading, the information is readily available to them, but they wont read it.
That is because you keep listening to Christian ideas about a concept in Judaism. Christians do not, and cannot speak on Satan or hell because they don't represent the religion where the concept comes from. Christians don't have the information to understand what they are reading, the information is readily available to them, but they wont read it.
So you mean hell is not a Christian concept so Christians have no reason to believe in it. Sounds sane to me.
So you mean hell is not a Christian concept so Christians have no reason to believe in it. Sounds sane to me.
All the scriptures of hell are about the outer court, and the outcome of the feast of Tabernacles, and since Christians wont study what is said and done in the temple during feasts, there is no way of them knowing the truth of what was said, since they wont study what is said and done during Sukkot, they have no way of knowing what the scriptures of Satan and hell mean.
Christians are reading a book written about Judaism but they wont study Judaism. They want an opinion on things they wont study. If they did study it, they wouldn't be saying that you are going to hell, because they would realize that they are standing in the same place as you, in the outer court, and there is still an alter of burnt offerings for salvation in the outer court.
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