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Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
You mention Howard Storm and "My Descent into Death," and... Really happened, but I sit here angry at Jesus he threw Howard Storm under the bus. Howard called out to Jesus, "Jesus, please save me," and I have read his account, and listened to his many videos on Youtube.
I must conclude His Christ is the counterfeit Christ. The pseudo-Christ. An antichrist. I smell a rotten egg in his theology.
For one, he is in another country talking about Jesus, and this Hindu woman tells him in no uncertain terms she wants no part of it. Howard Storm tells her, "You're doing ok with what you know." THIS, to an enemy of the cross?
JESUS told the religious Scribes and Pharisees of His day, in the book of John, "If ye believe not that I AM HE ye shall DIE IN YOUR SINS!" Same thing the REAL Jesus would have told the angry Hindu woman.
When I asked Howard, begging him, to tell me in detail what he believed about the Atonement, he thought I was imposing on his time, and instead referred me to some book written by some man on the Atonement. I read his views and they did not tell me a damn thing that squared with the Bible. Just some wishy-washy lovey-dovey God-does-not-punish sinners bs.
I twisted his arm in subsequent emails, and asked Him if God punished Jesus for our sins on the cross. As if knowing his answer would offend true Christians, he wrote me back, "God does not punish."
I emailed him a Youtube video by Loved Covered Life, and her video about the atonement, and asked if he agreed with her
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Does God Require BLOOD SACRIFICE to FORGIVE SIN?? [PART 3] | Refuting Penal Substitution Atonement
To me, the Atonement is Jesus paying the penalty of sin - death, so that God can remove sin and its stain both in our beings, and in God's holy mind.
This girl's view on the Atonement leave me feeling empty, unfulfilled, unsatisfied. If I took up believing her view on the Atonement I would be like that verse in Proverbs: "There IS A WAY which seemeth right unto a man,but the end thereof are the ways of death. EVEN IN LAUGHTER the heart is sorrowful." If I believed her views, I'd be happy but, there'd be an unfulfilled emptiness beneath the surface. Like something's missing, a happiness tinged by a nameless dissatisfaction eationg away at me as I tried to deny its existence.
She believes in Universalism. IS universalism true? WILL everyone be saved? To me, A TRULY BOTH OMNIPOTENT AND WHOLLY LOVING GOD COULD, and would be HOLY absolutely holy - separated unto Himself to Himself AND He would be LOVE.
The absolute MOST-AWESOME GOD would be a God Whom I could worship alone, and tremble before AND YET KNOW AND BE LOVED eternally by Him unconditionally.
A God Who WOULD, in the end, save everyone, using and not violating their free wills. The lake of fire, for many, would be a hell of a long night for some (eternity minus a second), but JOY would come in the morning. "Weeping may endure for the night, but joy cometh in the morning." The lake of fire would be like the journey from God by the prodigal son. Those in the lake of fire (because of the holiness of God) would KNOW they would be there for ever and ever and ever - no end whatsoever, UNTIL God broke through to them - remember, if I make my bed in hell GOD is there!
I have not found this perfect Jesus. It's like on this one side is the God of holiness, Who does not save everybody: and on the other side, the Jesus of unconditional love. I NEED BOTH but cannot HAVE both. I ABSOLUTELY NEED A GOD Who is WHOLLY HOLY, separated unto HIMSELF alone and yet, everlastingly loves me.
The God I am forced to believe in, from Scripture, and an inner sense I cannot deny, is holy unto Himself, and yes He loves us, but... His love is not what I truly need.
From: HowardStorm@twc.com
To: "howardstorm@twc.com"
Cc:
Sent: Monday June 29 2020 9:37:20AM
Subject: RE: New submission from contact
I am not interested.
Howard
I, personally, think Howard Storm knows his experience was not from God, deep inside, and when he hears the true gospel, it convicts him.
In his book, "My Descent into Death," he writes it became an obsession with him to wonder if his [NDE] experience was real, or the result of the trauma brought on by dying.
There's a verse in Proverbs, that goes like "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the WAYS OF DEATH. EVEN IN LAUGHTER the heart is sorrowful."
A TRULY born again Christians KNOWS IT, and is willing to DIE rather than deny it. It is an intuitive, spiritual KNOWING.
Howard Storm's experience
Howard Storm's Jesus did not touch his deepest spirit. Howard was never BORN AGAIN in his SPIRIT. Maybe is soul was rehabilitated, but his spirit was not regenerated. His Jesus did not come live inside Howard's HEART.
Howard Storm is trying to follow Jesus's commands in the power of his flesh and soul, AND NOT BY HIS SPIRIT BY THE POWER OF THE CROSS AND BLOOD OF CHRIST! Hence, I believe Howard has moments of unease and feelings that something is not right with his faith, because it is not spiritual, and washed in the blood.
"EVEN IN LAUGHTER THE HEART IS SORROWFUL!"
I emailed Howard once and asked if he EVER mentioned the blood in all his years as a preacher, because I never heard him once mention the blood of Jesus.
His response was, "Every Sunday when we have communion."
WELL WOAHH! Do not even the Catholics, and Jehovah's Witnesses do the same, and they are not right!
AND THIS IS WHY HOWARD DOUBTED HIS own experience! Notice, in his book he never doubts for one second the first part of his NDE where he was being tormented in hell! Wonder what Howard would do if someone pointed a gun at his head and told Him to deny Christ. __________________
Perhaps the fatal flaw in his book is when he asked Jesus, "When is all this going to happen?" (After Jesus showed him a new earth which was like a paradise-on-earth.) His Jesus told him, "In about 200 years."
Remember when the disciples in Acts, asked Jesus, "Wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"
The REAL JESUS answered, "It is NOT FOR YOU to know the times nor the seasons which the Father hath put in is power." NOW WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR AT LEAST 200 YEARS to disprove Howard Storm as a fraud.
Nice marketing ploy, Mr. Storm!
The JW's predicted Jesus's coming in 1918, and when it didn't happen, they redefined their theology to say Jesus came "in spirit".
IN CLOSING. Howard called out to JESUS to save Him!
WHY DID the REAL JESUS not come to save Him?
My only answer is tat when Howard called upon Jesus, as he related in a Youtube video, that he did not know if there was a Jesus but he wanted there to be a Jesus.
Maybe his lack of faith prevented the true Jesus from coming, and opened the door for the counterfeit Christ to come into his life.
Howard Storm ALSO says Jesus told him He would come back the second time WHEN WE WERE READY FOR HIM.
The BIBLE, however, Jesus asks, "When the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on earth?"
Howard Storm's faith is another step in the Great Apostasy, towards the Antichrist.
__________
IN ALL THE TIMES I HAVE EMAILED HOWARD STORM, or telephoned him (back in 2002), HOWARD HAS NEVER ONC SHOWN ME AN OUNCE OF the love his Jesus showed HIM. His replies are void of concern, cold,lacking any emotion.
"Beware of false teachers... Ye shall know them by their fruits," Jesus said. "Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision matters, but FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE!" Howard shows about no empathy or love, or tenderness in his emails, or on the telephone, to me.
I once telephoned a Unitarian church, and the man on the phone was just as unconcerned, void of emotion loveless like Howard to me. The Unitarians are wrong.
There was a Christian, back in the 1800's, sitting in a restaurant. The waitress kept coming out and spilling tea in his lap.
The man finally, most lovingly asked her, "Is there anything I can help you with?"
The waitress burst into tears, and ended up getting saved.
"Ye shall know them by their fruits."
I have no idea what you are talking about in regard to Howard Storm being thrown under the bus by Jesus. I read the book a few times.....Storm was lifted out of the darkness the instant he cried out to God....and not only that...it WAS GOD who prompted him as well. He was a very selfish almost sociopathic athiest yet God saved him. Storm even said as he was being lifted up out of that dreadful place that they (heaven) were making a mistake. He said I don't deserve heaven and the angel told him they don't make mistakes.
As far as what he believes now, don't know. I wrote him a long time ago and he responded and answered me that he didn't believe in universal salvation...that evil people cease to exist. I can see why he might believe that after being torn to pieces in that place.
One more thing...you have what happens in 200 years from now wrong. Storm was convinced WW3 was around the corner and asked Jesus or the angels, I forget, if there would be a future nuclear war. They said no. Then Jesus showed him Earth in around 200 years from now and people were more tribal, living off the land and PROSPERING beyond anything today...a wonderful future if you ask me...back to nature like God intended. What is antichrist about this message from Storm? This book about Storm actually was my first encounter on my 2 year journey to come to the conclusion UR is true and biblical.
My husband and I do know Bill Wiese personally. We attended the same Church Assembly for a couple of years when he was still working as a Real Estate Agent and a Property Manager.
My husband did some work for him, so he also knew him as an employer as well as a friend and brother-in-Christ. We heard his testimony first-hand, approximately 4 years before he published his first book! By the way, the publishing house approached him about writing the book, he didn't do this on his own.
This site as well as others are contrary to God and His Kingdom. They are not operating according to His Royal Law, in short, treat others the way you want to be treated!
My husband and I do know Bill Wiese personally. We attended the same Church Assembly for a couple of years when he was still working as a Real Estate Agent and a Property Manager.
My husband did some work for him, so he also knew him as an employer as well as a friend and brother-in-Christ. We heard his testimony first-hand, approximately 4 years before he published his first book! By the way, the publishing house approached him about writing the book, he didn't do this on his own.
This site as well as others are contrary to God and His Kingdom. They are not operating according to His Royal Law, in short, treat others the way you want to be treated!
Obviously it did not get to him. I would keep trying until you get an actual response from him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights
I recently read Wiese's book 23 Minutes in Hell and couldn't help but write him a few lines. I truly was not expecting to get a response, but I did. The response seemed more like a marketing tool than anything else. I'll let you be the judge. I welcome any and all users on this forum to answer the questions that I posed to Bill in my letter. I asked some very specific questions, and did not get the response I was looking for. I value any and all responses that people could provide. My letter went as follows:
Hello Bill,
I write to you today not as an enemy of Christianity, but as a person that struggles with his faith. To begin, I will give a brief history of myself. I was raised in a die-hard Christian home. As a youth, I was raised in the church, and I attended AWANA's for many years, ultimately achieving the Timothy Trophy before leaving the program. I attended Calvary Bible Church in Burbank throughout my childhood. The current pastor is a person you might be familiar with, Dr. Jack Hughes. But in the end, my mother was so hardcore that she diverted me away from religion. As an adult, I still went to church, but not for the right reasons. I went out of obligation, not because it captivated my interest or because I wanted to grow with my knowledge of the Lord. I have said the sinners prayer many times in my life, but felt no change. I never understood people's fascination with going to church. I never "wanted" to be there. It seemed like an unwanted task verses a desired event. I have prayed many times that God just put the "Vulcan Mind Melt" on me so that I can appreciate the lifestyle that a "true" Christian does. I have never experienced any kind of change in attitude or desire to walk the walk. I bought your book for $13 dollars because the title caught my interest at the supermarket.
I am now beginning to believe that I have the tendencies of a Deist (verses a Monotheist). I believe that God created the universe, but has since washed his hands of his affairs with humans. What else can possibly explain the atrocities that we see in daily life? Just recently, a strong Christian entity in my town lost his son in a car accident. Why would God allow this to happen to a dedicated Christian man, while evil people thrive in every aspect of their lives? I'm so tired of the "You just gotta have faith" mentality. Is this how God rewards his faithful? Why did God allow YOU to have this experience of Hell? Would it not make infinitely more sense to drop that kind of bomb on a wildly popular devout atheist the likes of Christopher Hitchens or Bill Maher, who control the publicity side of the Atheistic fight? They have mega-millions of unsaved followers. Don't you think that would have been a much more realistic approach to the problem? I mean, after all, he is an omniscient God, yes? What makes you think that people will believe you more than any other hellfire and brimstone preacher? If God really wanted to make an impact, he would have allowed an extreme disbeliever this revelation, not you. Heck, I wish that I could experience what you did, as it would surely change my life. You see, I believe in things that I can feel, taste, smell, touch, and understand. The Trinity is one of the major things that does not fall into that catagory for me, amongst many other pieces of Christian doctrine.
I have watched people struggle with faith in God throughout their lives. They try so hard, yet fail in the end. I crunched some numbers recently. There are 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet. There is roughly an equal ammount of Hindus and Buddhists. That right there is half of the worlds population. They say that there are roughly 2 billion "Chistians" on the planet. This, of course, includes many faiths that are not going to Heaven according to Biblical definitions of Christianity, such as Mormons, JW's, and Catholics. That leaves 2 billion people to be accounted for, which are "other" faiths and atheists and agnostics. I last read that 70% of Americans identify with Christianity. We all know, though, that the TRUE number is roughly 20%, if that, per the Bible's definition of "Christianity". We are nowhere near being a "Christian" nation in the U.S. That would mean that, in an optimistic estimate, only 1/14 of the worlds population at any given time in the history of our civilization is going to make it into the "Kingdom of God". That would be roughly 500 million out of 7 billion people. I have a hard time believing that a "loving" God would damn 13/14 of his population to hell. And if this is really true, this is not a God that I feel I can associate with, nor want to spend eternity with. If He was truly omniscient, He would have known at the time of creaton what his creation would divert to, and if he was truly "loving", he would have put a countermeasure in place. Remember, according to the 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet, you're the one going to hell. Now, I'm not trying to stand up for Islam. I'm just stating a point. They were brought onto this earth knowing only Islam. Who is correct by telling them they're wrong. This is all they know. This is just one example.
It seems so simple for "Christians". Jesus is the "Be all and end all" of discussion. There is no other. All other religions are going to eternal damnation except for them, right? I'm sorry, as this just does not "compute" with me. I cannot hold logical debate with my mother, as she ends all discussions with me when she gets flustered. She proves the validity of the Bible with the Bible, and that ends all arguments as far as she is concerned. Once complex issues enter the equation, she ends the conversation, as it is a threat to her belief system.
I could write thirty pages on why I struggle with my faith. Unfortunately, I am a fairly busy individual that regrets he does not have the time to do so. I am not naive enough to believe that I will get a response to this e-mail, but if you choose to respond, I thank you in advance. Any "advice" that you can give before I completely convert to "the dark side" would be appreciated.
Thank You,
Mark (Oregon)
And the following is the response that I got from Bill's wife Annette:
Thanks for writing. Most of your questions are addressed in Bill’s new book, “23 Questions about hell” which comes with a bonus DVD. If you don’t want to spend the $10-15 for the book/DVD, I’m sure you can read it while at Wal-mart or a bookstore. We encourage you to get scriptural information first, before falsely accusing God of being unfair. Mark Twain even said, “We’re all ignorant, it’s just about different things.” Hosea 4:6 says, “My people perish for a lack of knowledge… because they have rejected knowledge (God’s Word).
I found this post from a user (Cardinal) on tentmaker.org in regard in Bill Wiese and 23 minutes in Hell.
We were discussing NDE's..
Here it is. Very somber to have this happen to anyone but comforting to know that God's grace is sufficient in the end.
That's EXACTLY what He showed me it was GF......a hell or separation of that part of their soul nature from God, of their own soulish making. The "they" part of the equation descends alright, into their own stony hearts (their "Eve"), which is why many describe their surroundings as "like a cave". Their tormentors were the things that were speaking to them while still in the body, that were not overcome and silenced thru the mind of Christ, ie. the hate, revenge, malice, lust, jealousy, ect.
The soul stays bound in whatever it did not overcome, the spirit goes back to the One who sent it. This should be so obvious to us, as the resurrection IS the union of the soul (and body) with the Spirit, AGAIN, in a nutshell. But it was veiled from our eyes until the last days of the last day.
I shared all this on the old board, but He took me with Him in the Spirit into someone else's hell, as He set them free. I will never forget it as long as I live. Blessings to all.....
My husband and I do know Bill Wiese personally. We attended the same Church Assembly for a couple of years when he was still working as a Real Estate Agent and a Property Manager.
My husband did some work for him, so he also knew him as an employer as well as a friend and brother-in-Christ. We heard his testimony first-hand, approximately 4 years before he published his first book! By the way, the publishing house approached him about writing the book, he didn't do this on his own.
This site as well as others are contrary to God and His Kingdom. They are not operating according to His Royal Law, in short, treat others the way you want to be treated!
Can you elaborate more on "His Royal Law"?
I've seen religious people sell books and memberships and stuff but they are very transparent about where the money goes, a lot of times to charity or some non-profit organization for the poor and they even invite people to visit these organizations and charity events to show it is all real and authentic.
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