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Also, the Pauline teachings are in no way shape form or fashion the same as the later teachings that were espoused by the roman catholic Church after the 5th century. Any honest person who has studied church history and the development of traditional orthodox dogma would know as much ...
Peace ...
RESPONSE:
Jesus teaching about not changing the Law predated Paul's epistles by about 20 years.
Paul rejected the Mosaic Law and was considered an apostate by the Jewish Christians.
>>Christ said not one word letter will pass from the law until the creation of the new heavens and earth. And he was right, as even today the law is still in effect for the purpose of convicting man of sin. But that law is now obsolete in its function of providing man a means of salvation, and in fact has never been for the purpose of salvation to begin with.<<
>>Paul did not say the law had passed away, he said Christ made it obsolete, in that he became the final sacrifice, and the sacrifices of the old covenant and the law of sin and death were made obsolete by his sacrifice. There remains no more sacrifice for sins under the obsolete law of sin and death though it still remains as a constant reminder of the sin of humanity and our need of Christ as savior.<<
RESPONSE:
Galatians 2:15-16
We who are Jews by birth and not "Gentile sinners" know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one is justified.
verses
Matthew 5:17-20
"Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish the law but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 16:17 "It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the law."
Note also that the original followers of Jesus, the members of the Jerusalem community remained observant Jews "zealous for the law." Jesus never made the law obsolete and insisted that it continued to be observed until"heaven and earth disappear."
>>Christ said not one word letter will pass from the law until the creation of the new heavens and earth. And he was right, as even today the law is still in effect for the purpose of convicting man of sin. But that law is now obsolete in its function of providing man a means of salvation, and in fact has never been for the purpose of salvation to begin with.<<
>>Paul did not say the law had passed away, he said Christ made it obsolete, in that he became the final sacrifice, and the sacrifices of the old covenant and the law of sin and death were made obsolete by his sacrifice. There remains no more sacrifice for sins under the obsolete law of sin and death though it still remains as a constant reminder of the sin of humanity and our need of Christ as savior.<<
RESPONSE:
Galatians 2:15-16
We who are Jews by birth and not "Gentile sinners" know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one is justified.
verses
Matthew 5:17-20
"Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish the law but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 16:17 "It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the law."
Note also that the original followers of Jesus, the members of the Jerusalem community remained observant Jews "zealous for the law." Jesus never made the law obsolete and insisted that it continued to be observed until"heaven and earth disappear."
Peter accepted Paul as a greater apostle than himself, as did all the other apostles, and was rebuked by Paul for preferring the circumcision even after he had been commanded by God to cease doing so.
Again, i ask you to please provide scriptural evidence that the apostles considered Paul an heretic, or any of the writings of the early church which taught Paul was an heretic ... Do you have any evidence from the first 5 centuries which will corroborate you allegations?
As we yeild to the Holy Spirit we are no longer under the bondage to the Law, plus as we are not under the law of sin and death we are required by the Lord who gave us this freedom of control of the condemnation from sin , that to not condemn others of sin as there is no love throught the condemnation of others sin .... Lord Jesus freed us so we free others , so we resist judging others and when issuse come up like when other are taking advantage of believers we ask Jesus to Judge this for us through his blood ..... so we can stay in love no matter what.......
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, and for sin, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Bless Your precious Word Holy Father, in the Name of Jesus...Amen.
God placed His Spirit within us, which gives us the POWER TO OBEY Him and keep His Commandments. As we yield ourselves to the Holy Spirit and are controlled and guided by Him, we are able to obey God and His Word AND THE REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW IS MET IN US.
We no longer have to strive in our own strength to obey God. We are SET FREE TO OBEY as we depend upon the power of the Holy Spirit working in us, and believe God to do exactly as He promised when He said, "...I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgements, AND DO THEM." (Ezekiel 36:27).
As we continually yield ourselves and are guided and controlled by the Spirit, we will not obey the desires and lusts of our flesh and we are no longer in bondage to the Law. It is as we continually yield ourselves and are guided and controlled by the Spirit, that we are able to walk in obedience and no longer live under condemnation and guilt. Look at Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."
Many Christians read this verse and stop here. They use this verse to condone their permissiveness. They live their lives according to the dictates of their flesh, and when they hear the Word preached that exposes their sinful condition, they reject it saying, "There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."
They deceive themselves because they do not apply the entire Scripture. This verse does not condone the actions of all those who profess to be Christians. Paul made it perfectly clear concerning those who are no longer living under condemnation.
Paul said, "There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT" (Romans 8:1).
It is those who areyielded to the Holy Spirit and are living their lives being led and controlled by the Holy Spirit who are no longer living under condemnation.
Christians who yield themselves to the lusts of their flesh and are led and controlled by their fleshly desires are condemned. They are rebelling and stand guilty before God. Unless they repent once and for all time and completely turn away for good, from their sinful life...forever, they will reap what they have sown. "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life" (Galatians 6:7-8).
...one reaps destruction....one reaps eternal life.......destruction...?....or...eternal life...?.....destruction means NOT eternal life......destruction means NOT getting "fixed-up" after living and dying in your sin.....destruction means just that...destroyed...eternally separated from God...FOREVER!
Your choice will be made here...on this earth...before you take your last breath..."...the one who sows to the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life"..."...the one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction."
...destruction or eternal life...?...your choice.
In Christ's love..and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior
Verna Perry posted:
>>As We Yield To The Holy Spirit We Are No Longer Under In Bondage To The Law<<
She then quotes from Paul's Romans.
However, Paul contradicted Jesus' teaching on this point.
Matt 5:17 "17 ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfil.. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." (NRSV)
And the members of the first Christian community, the Jerusalem community, adhered to this teaching.
Acts of the Apostles 21:20 " When they heard it, they praised God. Then they said to him, ‘You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the law." (NRSV)
But Paul's contrary teaching was:
Heb 8:13 "In speaking of ‘a new covenant’, he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear." (NRSV)
Of course, Jesus did no such thing. But what developed after the destruction of the original Christian community by the Romans is the Pauline Chirstianity which we have today.
ancient warrior,
Do you realize that I am a 7th Day (Saturday) Sabbath Keeper? I keep the Ten Commandments of God as we are commanded to do if we profess to love God; know Him and abide in Him. Scripture teaches us that if we do not keep His Commandments, not only do we not know Him...but we do not love Him, nor do we abide in Him...AND!...Scripture also teaches us that if we do not keep the Ten Commandments of God, He does not know us...He does not love us, nor does He abide in us. He hates workers of iniquity...that would be a person who willfully sins...who transgresses the Law...because sin is nothing more than the transgression of the Law of God...the transgression of the Ten Commandments. Thus saith the LORD God Almighty...It is written. And I live by this.
The whole point of my OP is to show those who accuse me of thinking that by keeping the Commandments of God, including the Fourth one, I will earn my salvation...which is not what I believe at all. I wholly believe that the New Covenant NEVER! EVER! did away with the covenant set forth by God in the Old Covenant...not one single one of the Ten Commandments were erased by a New Covenant...not one!
...and Paul NEVER! contradicted Jesus...Paul was a Sabbath keeper, through and through, do not be decieved. He stood for everything Jesus stood for...be very careful what you profess to know...but in reality, you do not understand. Let's look at the true meaning of Hebrews 8:13...
The series of items written in this covenant are remarkable, and are a seal between God and his people by baptism and the Lord's supper; where they bind themselves to their part, and God assures them he will do his part; and His is the main and principal part, on which His people depend for grace and strength to do theirs.
God writes that he will put his laws into His peoples' minds and write them in their hearts, v. 10. He once wrote his laws to them, now He will write his laws in them; that is, He will give them understanding to know and to believe his law; He will give them memories to retain them; He will give them hearts to love them and consciences to recognize them; He will give them courage to profess them and power to put them in practice; the whole frame of their souls shall be a table and transcript of the law of God. This is the foundation of the covenant; and, when this is laid, duty will be done wisely, sincerely, readily, easily, resolutely, constantly, and comfortably.
He articles with His people to take them into a loving, close and intimate relationship with Himself...
1. He will be to them a God; that us, He will be all that to them, and do all that for them, that God can be and do.
2. They shall be to Him a people, to love, honour, and obey Him in all things; complying with His warnings, to act in accordance to His commands, comporting to His providences, living out His example, willingly living out His will for their lives...This those MUST! DO! and WILL! DO! who have God for their God; this they are bound to do as their part of the contract; this they shall do, for God will enable them to do it, as an evidence that He is their God and that they are His people; for it is God himself who first founds the relation, and then fills it up with sufficient grace, and helps them in their measure to fill it up with love and duty; so that God engages both for Himself and them.
Please read my OP again...and please read my thread entitled: "The Choice Is Ours To Obey Or Disobey" to fully understand where I stand.
God Bless you.
In Christ's love...prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Peter accepted Paul as a greater apostle than himself, as did all the other apostles, and was rebuked by Paul for preferring the circumcision even after he had been commanded by God to cease doing so.
Again, i ask you to please provide scriptural evidence that the apostles considered Paul an heretic, or any of the writings of the early church which taught Paul was an heretic ... Do you have any evidence from the first 5 centuries which will corroborate you allegations?
Anything?
I didn't think so ...
Peace ...
RESPONSE:
Here's a few references for you to check.
"Recent scholars have plausibly maintained that the term [Ebionites] did not originally designate any hereticalsect, but merely the orthodox Jewish Christians of Palestine who continued to observe the Mosaic Law........
"The doctrines of this sect [Ebionites] are said by Irenaeus to be like those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They denied the Divinity and the virginal birth of Christ; they clung to the observance of the Jewish Law; they regarded St. Paul as an apostate, and used only a Gospel according to St. Matthew (Adv. Haer., I, xxvi, 2; III, xxi, 2; IV, xxxiii, 4; V, i, 3). Their doctrines are similarly described by Hippolytus (Philos., VIII, xxii, X, xviii) and Tertullian (De carne Chr., xiv, 18)..."
"Then they said to him, ‘You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the law. They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs.What then is to be done? "
Last edited by ancient warrior; 09-23-2010 at 06:54 AM..
Reason: typo
"Recent scholars have plausibly maintained that the term [Ebionites] did not originally designate any hereticalsect, but merely the orthodox Jewish Christians of Palestine who continued to observe the Mosaic Law........
"The doctrines of this sect [Ebionites] are said by Irenaeus to be like those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They denied the Divinity and the virginal birth of Christ; they clung to the observance of the Jewish Law; they regarded St. Paul as an apostate, and used only a Gospel according to St. Matthew (Adv. Haer., I, xxvi, 2; III, xxi, 2; IV, xxxiii, 4; V, i, 3). Their doctrines are similarly described by Hippolytus (Philos., VIII, xxii, X, xviii) and Tertullian (De carne Chr., xiv, 18)..."
"Then they said to him, ‘You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the law. They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs.What then is to be done? "
Thank you for your reply ...
So you are an Ebionite? Do you deny the divinity and the virgin birth of Christ?
Do you prefer the circumcision(are you a racist?) and only associate(eat dinner) with other Jews or gentiles who have converted to Judaism? The Ebionites did ...
Do you deny that the book of acts was written by Luke? Do you deny that all the other apostles received Paul as an apostle? if so, please provide your evidence ...
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