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Old 10-05-2010, 06:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Eusebius,
I am not going to say that you are wrong, because you might be right.
However, we can read that one gospel tells us what the Pharisees and Sadducees were guilty of, and that was hypocrisy. See Luke 12:1.

Although the doctrine of eternal damnation and condemnation in general is not what the early church preached, so you may be right also.

Blessings!
brian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Hi Brian, good points. I'm not saying you are wrong either, but how did the Pharisees teach hypocrisy? Could it be in this instance that Jesus meant the bad influence of the Pharisees as a leavening agent rather than a humbling one?

In one instance Jesus was bringing out the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees. But here He is singling out just the Pharisees and their leaven?

I think Jesus, in saying "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees which is hypocrisy" meant this:

"LEAVEN is a ferment which spoils whatever it touches, until it is stopped by heat. It is a symbol of evil and wickedness (1 Cor.5:8), and, among religious zealots like the Pharisees, hypocrisy (Luke 12:1). It takes very little of it to swell a vast amount of dough, and a tiny measure of evil will spoil a whole group of saints. When there was a serious moral lapse among the Corinthians, and they were puffed up over it, Paul called for the most energetic action" (Unsearchable Riches vol.49, p.39).

Josephus, writing sometime near the beginning of the second century, had this to say about the Pharisees ...
Quote:
""They also believe that souls have an immortal vigor in them , and that under the earth there will be rewards and punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and that the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison("aidios eirgmos"), but that the former shall have power to revive and live again."
The pharisees adopted many of their doctrines from the "Parsee" sect of Zoroastrianism which was in Babylon during the Israels captivity there.


Note the similarity in words, Parsee, Farsi, Pharisee ... Etc ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-05-2010 at 07:03 PM..
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Old 10-05-2010, 06:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Hi Brian, good points. I'm not saying you are wrong either, but how did the Pharisees teach hypocrisy? Could it be in this instance that Jesus meant the bad influence of the Pharisees as a leavening agent rather than a humbling one?

In one instance Jesus was bringing out the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees. But here He is singling out just the Pharisees and their leaven?

I think Jesus, in saying "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees which is hypocrisy" meant this:

"LEAVEN is a ferment which spoils whatever it touches, until it is stopped by heat. It is a symbol of evil and wickedness (1 Cor.5:8), and, among religious zealots like the Pharisees, hypocrisy (Luke 12:1). It takes very little of it to swell a vast amount of dough, and a tiny measure of evil will spoil a whole group of saints. When there was a serious moral lapse among the Corinthians, and they were puffed up over it, Paul called for the most energetic action" (Unsearchable Riches vol.49, p.39).

Jesus also mentioned that the Pharisees where guilty of extortion and greed as well(Mat 23:25) ... I believe he was referring to their doctrine here as well as their actual lifestyles. What other doctrine could be said to express extortion the part of the Pharisees if not the threat of everlasting imprisonment and torments after death?

And then again Christ called them white washed tomb stones(Mat 23:27), because outwardly they appeared to be righteous among men, but inwardly they were full of death(i.e hypocrisy and iniquity). Again, this seems to be a doctrinal allegation as well as a spiritual allegation. What other doctrine is more about death than the doctrine of everlasting death and torment?



Peace ...
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Old 10-05-2010, 07:06 PM
 
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If we examine everything Christ had to say about the Pharisees in contrast with what we know from other historical accounts concerning the doctrines of the Pharisees, we can put together a pretty good description of them and it becomes quite evident what Christ meant when he rebuked them and their teachings/doctrines.

And it becomes quite that the teachings/doctrines of the Pharisees and their effects still survive to this day in the core teachings of orthodox fundamentalist Christianity ...
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Old 10-05-2010, 07:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
"Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" (Mat 16:6).

"Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" (Mat 16:12).

And what did the Pharisees and Sadducees teach?
The Pharisees taught eternal torment.
The Sadducees taught eternal annihilation.

Jesus taught age-during chastening.

BEWARE the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees!
It is interesting to me that you started a thread in the vain of this OP ... I have been considering starting a thread for the past couple of days on the same subject.

I guess you beat me to it ... I was being lazy.


I think that it is a good idea to put together everything we can on the subject of who the Pharisees were and what they taught and contrast those things with the teachings of Christ and then also on the teachings of the Apostles.

Then we can identify more readily the doctrines which Christ and his apostles warned of that would eventually infiltrate the Church and its teachings.

I believe that this line of reasoning can really lead only to certain obvious conclusions ... But i would like to see the rebuttal and conclusions of those that would disagree with the conclusions which we may draw.




Peace ...
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Verse 7: And they reasoned among themselves, saying, [It is] because we have taken no bread.

Your inferrence is incorrect.
"Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" (Mat 16:12).
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:20 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,786,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
...The leavening agent incorporates gas bubbles into the dough—this may be air incorporated by mechanical means, but usually it is carbon dioxide produced by biological agents, or by chemical agents reacting with moisture, heat, acidity, or other triggers....
Are you saying that the ETer's are foaming at the mouth with moisture, heat, acidity, and other biological and chemical agents that give off poisonous gases into the atmosphere?

They don't sound to be environmentally friendly do they...
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Are you saying that the ETer's are foaming at the mouth with moisture, heat, acidity, and other biological and chemical agents that give off poisonous gases into the atmosphere?

They don't sound to be environmentally friendly do they...
......
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Old 10-05-2010, 11:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Verse 7: And they reasoned among themselves, saying, [It is] because we have taken no bread.

Your inferrence is incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
"Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" (Mat 16:12).

Quote:
11How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? 12Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Come on Sciotamicks, didn't you read the surrounding verses also?
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Old 10-05-2010, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Come on Sciotamicks, didn't you read the surrounding verses also?
Yes. Has nothing to do with what the OP is about.
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Old 10-05-2010, 11:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Yes. Has nothing to do with what the OP is about.
Please explain your conclusions on the matter? ... What is your opinion about it?
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