Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
God is a triune Being. The Godhead consists of three Persons who are co-equal and co-eternal and who all possess the same identical essence. By identical essence, it is meant that God the Father, God the Son - Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit, each possess in equal and infinite measure - Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Love, Eternal Life, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutability, and Veracity. In Person's they are three. In essence they are One.
But I want to clarify the relationship between the First and Second Persons of the trinity. The relationship of 'Father' and 'Son.' Simply put, the terms 'Father' and 'Son' are language of accomodation within a plan. A plan which originated in the datelessness of eternity past in the divine decrees.
God the Father is not really a Father, and God the Son is not really a Son. This relationship of 'Father' and 'Son' simply indicates the function of the Persons of the Godhead in the plan of God in the divine decrees. By definition (and it was Robert B. Thieme Jr., Pastor of Berachah Church in Houston Texas who coined the following definition), ''the decree of God is His eternal, holy, wise, and sovereign purpose, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be - in their causes, courses, conditions, successions, and relations - and determining their certain futurition.'' In the divine decrees, it is the First Person of the trinity - the Father, who does the planning. And it is the Second Person who executes the plan of salvation for the human race.
Hebrews 1:5 is part of a passage in which the superiority of Jesus Christ is addressed. 'For to which of the angels did He ever say, ''Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee''? This is a quotation of Psalms 2:7 which says ''I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ''Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee.''
'You are' - second person singular present of eimi shows that the relationship has always existed because there was never a time when God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit had not planned man's salvation. As God, Jesus Christ has always existed. In the plan of salvation for man which had its origin in the divine decrees, one of the Persons of the trinity does the sending and one of them is on the receiving end and has the responsibility to execute the plan by coming into the world as a man through a virgin birth and going to the cross. The cross was planned in eternity past. 'My - mou - possessive pronoun indicating the eternal relationship between the First and Second Person of the Godhead, Son' - huios - adult Son. Again, the term 'Son' is simply language of accommodation within a plan. 'Today' - semeron refers to the time of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. To the time of His virgin birth by which means He took the form of a member of the human race. The agency of His conception and virgin birth was God the Holy Spirit. Matthew 1:18 'Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.' And Luke 1:35 'And the angel answered and said to her, ''The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.' Because it had been decided upon and known from eternity past that the Second Person of the Godhead - Jesus, would volunteer to come into the world via a virgin birth through the agency of God the Holy Spirit, and because it was the First Person of the trinity who was the planner, the relationship of 'Father' and 'Son' has always existed between the First and Second Persons of the trinity.
'I have begotten you' - begotten is the perfect active indicative of gennao. As of the moment of the virgin birth, Jesus became the unique Person of the universe. He had always been undiminished deity, but now He became true humanity. In hypostatic union, He is the God-Man. Eternal and infinite God and true humanity in one Person, and will remain so for all eternity future. He is unique. He is different from God the Father and God the Holy Spirit in that He is man. He is different from man in that He is God. But it is God the Father who is the source of the hypostatic union. He is the author of the grace plan of salvation. And He is therefore, the Father in the sense of having the authority in the plan, with Jesus being obedient to His will. All of this by common agreement among the Persons of the Godhead.
In summary, the relationship of Father and Son between the First and Second Persons of the trinity is not literal but is language of accommodation within a plan decided upon in eternity past with regard to providing eternal salvation for man. The deity of Jesus Christ is co-equal and co-eternal with both God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
Last edited by Michael Way; 10-10-2010 at 12:34 AM..
In summary, the relationship of Father and Son between the First and Second Persons of the trinity is not literal but is language of accommodation within a plan decided upon in eternity past with regard to providing eternal salvation for man. The deity of Jesus Christ is co-equal and co-eternal with both God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
I disagree. I believe the relationship of the Father and the Son is indeed literal.
I believe that our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ have a true father-son relationship. The words, "Father" and "Son," in other words, mean exactly what they say and not metaphorical or symbolic of a vague metaphysical relationship, in which two beings are some how both part of a single substance. I believe that Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal mother. He was conceived in a miraculous way, but like all sons, was in the "express image of His Father's person."
The Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another, and yet they are also "one." I don't interpret the word "one" to mean that they are different manifestations of one essence, but that they are one in will and purpose, one in mind and heart, and one in power and glory. It would be impossible to explain, or even to understand, the degree of their unity. It is perfect; it is absolute. They think, feel and act as "one God." Because of this perfect unity, and because they share the title of "God," we think of them together in this way. It would be impossible for us to worship one of them without also worshipping the other.
I would also not use the words "co-equal” and “co-eternal” to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. As is again the case with all fathers and sons, the Father existed prior to His Son, although they both existed at the time the events in the Bible took place (i.e. "in the beginning" as "the beginning" relates to the creation of our universe). No son's existence precedes his father's, and Jesus Christ is no exception to this rule. I also believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what I mean when I use the word "subordinate." I understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship, but I do not believe Him to be an inferior being. He has all of the same attributes of divinity that His Father has. (As an example of what I mean, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. To most people's way of thinking, an ant, however, is an inferior being to a human.)
I have been where you are. I used to blindly accept the trinity. It isn’t scripturally there! Nor is Jesus God! None of that is true. To really believe Jesus is God, you have to completely accept what your church teaches, and blind yourself to the hundreds if not thousands of scripture that prove it false beyond any reasonable logic or doubt.
Sheer logic alone prove Jesus isn’t God. He is a separate thing. He is created (begotten by God). He had a beginning. God never had a creator. Jesus died. God cannot die!
Who are you talking to, Dewdrop, Mike or me or both of us?
Mike. I mean - perhaps this is a thread where I should just keep my mouth shut seeing as how I'm not Christian - but it just doesn't make sense to me that God and Jesus are the same... Jesus refers to God as his father, at least I thought he did. I don't know - just doesn't make sense to me that they are one entity. But that's just me.
I get what you are saying but it just doesn't make sense to me. It's not because of how you explained it - it just doesn't make sense to me.
Of course it doesn't. That's because it's complete confusion, and God is not the author of confusion. The trinity has pagan sources, and got picked up by the VERY pagan Catholic church, which is basically just Zoroastrianism and Mithraism. The trinity was very important to these religions, but is NOWHERE taught in the Bible. Jesus had a link to his father, making his father's will his own. That's it, and that's all.
I don't care how much the Protestant churches try to explain the trinity, or how much they write about it, or how much they preach about it, it doesn't make it true and it still won't make any sense. It's just more confusion and pure Catholicism they are teaching, which, as I mentioned above is just Zoroastrianism, a MUCH older religion.
~~~One God, the Creator: To Zoroasts he was Ahura Mazda, to Christians, he is the Father and to Muslims, Allah. In all cases He incarnates, and is the source of all that is good.
~~~Dualism: This is the concept that as there is an all-good God, there is also a source of all evil. In Zoroastrianism the source of evil is Angra Mainyu; for Christians he is Satan and in Islam the evil one is known as Iblis or Shaitan.
Zoroastrianism teaches:
~~~Judgment of the soul after death.
~~~Heaven and hell.
~~~Resurrection.
~~~Final Judgment.
~~~Slaughter of the innocents.
~~~A savior born of a virgin.
Protestant: It's NOT paganism.
Me: Yes, it is.
~~~~Jesus had his OWN will, apart from the Father's.
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
Matthew 6:10 your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
Matthew 26:42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
~~~~Jesus did not say, "I praise myself, because I have hidden these things."
I could go on...............
Last edited by herefornow; 10-10-2010 at 02:03 PM..
Incarnation theology is, forever, crossing the line into Docetism; an ancient falsehood which asserts that Jesus Christ lacked that of being fully human.
Consequently, denying the Resurrection from death and Ascension into heaven through participation, an ampersand leading to Substitution theories.
Mike. I mean - perhaps this is a thread where I should just keep my mouth shut seeing as how I'm not Christian - but it just doesn't make sense to me that God and Jesus are the same... Jesus refers to God as his father, at least I thought he did. I don't know - just doesn't make sense to me that they are one entity. But that's just me.
Of course it doesn't make sense. It's not supposed to make sense. It's one of those things traditional Christianity describes as a mystery that we are not supposed to be able to understand.
It's not just you, though. It's me, too, and it's anyone who stops and really thinks about it. I can just about guarantee that if you gave an English-speaking person who didn't know the first thing about the Abrahamic God (the trick would be finding such a person), a copy of the Bible, and said, "Here... Read this. When you're done, tell me about the relationship between the two people described as the Father and the Son," that person would not conclude from reading the Bible that the Father and the Son are parts of a single substance which can't be divided, confounded, understood, etc. Furthermore, there are hundreds of verses in the Bible that simply don't make any sense at all when viewed from a Trinitarian perspective. You do know, don't you, how the doctrine of the Trinity and all of this business of a single substance came to be?
Incarnation theology is, forever, crossing the line into Docetism; an ancient falsehood which asserts that Jesus Christ lacked that of being fully human.
Consequently, denying the Resurrection from death and Ascension into heaven through participation, an ampersand leading to Substitution theories.
Oh, that makes all kinds of sense. It kind of reminds me of a joke I heard once...
Jesus said, Whom do men say that I am?
And his disciples answered and said, Some say you are John the Baptist returned from the dead; others say Elias, or other of the old prophets.
And Jesus answered and said, But whom do you say that I am?
Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as His rationality and then, by an act of His will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only on the fact that Scripture speaks of a Father, and a Son, and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member, and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, but an economic subordination within God, a division which makes the substance no longer simple."
And Jesus answering, said, "What?"
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That's because it's complete confusion, and God is not the author of confusion.
The trinity has pagan sources, and got picked up by the VERY pagan Catholic church, which is basically just Zoroastrianism and Mithraism. The trinity was very important to these religions, but is NOWHERE taught in the Bible. Jesus had a link to his father, making his father's will his own. That's it, and that's all.
It kind of reminds me of a joke I heard once...
