Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The atheist does not acknowledge, nor believes in the existence of God. That does not, however, negate the fact that atheists can be, and are decent human beings who are capable of putting the fundamental humanity of others before his or herself. Yes, it is possible for the atheist to love another before themselves, independantly of their lack of belief in God. It happens every day, whether one wishes to acknowledge it or not.
Not to contribute to your being "confounded" trettep (and others) but the reality of her paragraph above would pretty much sum up June's feelings/belief as regards the OP. It would appear, however, that to some degree the OP "pigeon holes" people by segregating them and assigning them to separate boxes, without taking into account the fact that inherent goodness and loving kindness can and does exist in human beings despite their lacking any belief in God. Anyone can sit around and read the bible from dusk till dawn, but that does not necessarily make them a Christian that is (more) pleasing to your God. Likewise, for that matter, even June, as a nonbeliever, could read the bible from dusk till dawn, but that would make her no more pleasing to God than the Christian in the OP's example.
God's creation should be "pleasing" to him; acts of compassion and altruism should be pleasing to him despite the alleged 'origin' of those acts. One does not need to believe in any deity in order to be a good person in their heart and mind. To say otherwise would be falsely attributing to the atheist the free reign to do and act however he/she pleases, without regard to ethics, morals, and consideration of their fellow human beings. It simply doesn't work that way; not spiritually, and certainly not in real life.
If, as you say, God exists, then acts of love towards self and other should be pleasing to God as it reflects his creative endeavors. It is what exists in the person's heart that counts. To pigeon hole the nonbeliever as incapable of acts that would potentially be pleasing to your God would be a misleading statement and attitudinal belief. And yes, those things such as love and altruism towards one's fellow man can and do exist within the hearts of many, many atheists. Please don't judgementally put us in some little box; it diminishes the presence and power of what your God is capable of; what he fundamentally created by way of his own creation. --Despite the origin or motiivation behind the atheist's actions towards self and others...
June agrees with MC: Atheists can be, and are good without any accompanying belief in a God. She would disagree with MC, however, in her analysis that we are "horrible, terrible, soulless." ~At least June's not.
Take gentle care.
I would change your assertion of no belief in God to "independent of their intellectual acknowledgment of a belief in God," June . . . there is a difference. Perhaps a recap of part of another of my posts would be helpful here. Contrary to popular belief among the religionists and the atheists . . . we do not control what our "true beliefs" are. True belief is a subjective inner state of mind that has little to do with willful choice . . . and it need not correspond to reality as typically understood intellectually (although mine does!). In the absence of a true belief . . . we must choose what we can intellectually accept among competing alternatives. They are not equivalent states of mind.
Intellectually . . . we all live with what we can accept among the competing alternatives . . . what "makes sense" to us. But our intrinsic and unconscious behaviors and attitudes reveal what we "truly believe" about our existence and the value of human life, etc. (commonly called "fruits" of the Spirit in religious circles). They are far more informative than our expressed "beliefs." I rely on them as indices of what people "believe" about the existence of God or a Source of purpose and value to human life.
I wasn't asking about how a person is saved, and I did not ask what faith does.
Can you please address my questions?
Thank you..
It answers your question.
Faith brings forth works, so there is no such thing as a 100% fruitless believer. Your question was based on the assumption that there are believers who "do nothing", but the assumption is false. With faith, there is always fruit. And yes, studying the Bible and talking about it indeed a fruit which pleases God.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 11-22-2010 at 11:58 AM..
That is one of the most insightful statements I've ever seen. After observing so many of these Fundamentalist/Evangelicals over the years, there is no question that this is a true statement.
That is one of the most insightful statements I've ever seen. After observing so many of these Fundamentalist/Evangelicals over the years, there is no question that this is a true statement.
Would it make sense that God would give us a gift which is void of love?
1 Peter 1:8-9 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Faith is the cornerstone of the relationship between man and God. I would not attempt to downplay the importance of faith.
Faith brings forth works, so there is no such thing as a 100% fruitless believer. Your question was based on the assumption that there are believers who "do nothing", but the assumption is false. With faith, there is always fruit. And yes, studying the Bible and talking about it indeed a fruit which pleases God.
Finn,
I am not talking about faith and what it brings. I'm not talking about 100% fruitless believers. I'm not talking about whether there is fruit with faith. And I'm not talking about whether reading the Bible and talking about it is pleasing to God or not.
Dodging questions raises suspicions, so will you please read my post and answer directly, or not? Or maybe someone else can answer without dodging..?
Would it make sense that God would give us a gift which is void of love?
1 Peter 1:8-9 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Faith is the cornerstone of the relationship between man and God.
Ah, but is it not said "by their works you shall know them?" I suppose it is easy to fall to the default position of "well they aren't true believers then." I see that as a cop out though. There are many Christians who have faith and believe fervently that Jesus is the Christ. They prey...I mean pray, they go to church, they witness, they study the bible, yet you can see in their actions a lack of compassion, lack of altruism, lack of humility, are prideful in their faith and look down on those who do not have the "secret". Yet they "believe"...I mean really believe. Does Creator honor this?
So where does that leave us? I have to think that Creator honors the good works, selfless acts, compassion and, yes, love of those who are not Christians. Sorta like the tale of the Good Samaritan dontcha think?
Last edited by Fullback32; 11-22-2010 at 01:01 PM..
Ah, but is it not said the "by their works you shall know them?" I suppose it it easy to fall to the default position of "well they aren't true believers then." I see that as a cop out though. There are many Christians who have faith and believe fervently that Jesus is the Christ. They prey...I mean pray, they go to church, they witness, they study the bible, yet you can see in their actions a lack of compassion, lack of altruism, lack of humility are prideful in their faith and look down on those who do not have the "secret". Yet they "believe"...I mean really believe.
So where does that leave us? I have to think that Creator honors the good works, selfless acts, compassion and, yes, love of those who are not Christians. Sorta like the tale of the Good Samaritan dontcha think?
Thank you for this post! Indeed, there are many who "believe," and although I don't doubt their faith, they talk as though that faith is their own, or that they "did it on their own," when it is God who gives faith!
Why do I care? Because they send the message to the "heathen" that they have done something that the "heathen" have not yet done... believe!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Moderator cut: Orphaned
Moderator cut: Orphaned reference/response
That is why I asked how people can say that only believers are sheep, and unbelievers are goats. It is completely false, because Jesus judges both groups based on what they have done, not what they have believed.
That is why I asked how people can say that only believers are sheep, and unbelievers are goats. It is completely false, because Jesus judges both groups based on what they have done, not what they have believed.
I do not believe in salvation based on works, and you obviously do. Like I said earlier: you do not have to believe what I believe.
Without faith no one can enter, and without faith it is impossibe to please God. It is as simple as that.
I do not believe in salvation based on works, and you obviously do. Like I said earlier: you do not have to believe what I believe.
Without faith no one can enter, and without faith it is impossibe to please God. It is as simple as that.
Well, each of us believes according to his/her convictions, and what you believe is where you need to be, God made you the way you are. What anyone believes is what God has given them to believe or not, and although I like to challenge people's beliefs, I don't tell people that they are not saved if they do not see things the way I do. But many Christians do.
Explore new ideas, yes. Tell people that they aren't saved, no.
Blessings,
brian
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
). In the absence of a true belief . . . we must choose what we can intellectually accept among competing alternatives. They are not equivalent states of mind. 
