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I think it is you who is missing the point. You and I both know that a lot of people die in their sins, so your belief system really revolves around a forced salvation process which takes place after death.
Why on earth do you presume it is forced, Finn. Have you not ever regretted the error of your ways when it was pointed out to you so clearly that you had no idea you were being so obtuse? Haven't you ever hurt someone in ways you were entirely oblivious to until they were pointed out to you or you came to know of it on your own. Would you call the sudden understanding and self-imposed regret and gnashing of teeth over your ignorance and obliviousness that leads to your change of heart . . ."Force?"
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The Bible doesn't talk about this process, but that is besides the point. When you tell people that everyone will automatically be saved after death, whether or not that knew Christ, they will see no reason to come to Christ while living. They will continue to live in darkness, and let the auto-salvation process take care if them after they die. They will die in their sins and be lost forever. This is what makes ur a very dangerous teaching.
Stop with the "automatically be saved" nonsense, Finn. there is nothing automatic about our sanctification . . . only our ultimate fate. Reaping what we sow is unavoidable and the eventual realization of our selfishness and obtuseness in this life will not be pleasant for many of us. But our salvation is not in jeopardy.
You can only call it "automatic salvation" if you INCLUDE YOURSELF in that group.
Salvation is a process, and it is a COMPLETE work of God.
All will be humbled.
All will bow and confess.
All will swear allegiance.
All will praise His name joyfully.
All will be made righteous.
And then finally, all will have been saved.
Yes, when one is brought to a low point, destroyed, humbled, realizing how foolish they have been, regretting the error they have made - that is the perfect point for that person to be saved.
Finn you keep missing the point. Of course it matters if you respond to Jesus, salvation only comes through him. What we are saying is that everyone will come to Jesus because of God's judgments. All will repent and their heart will be change and they will be cleansed. No one is saying that you will remain a sinner and be saved, you will have to repent. We are just saying that God can bring this about, after all he is God. No one will be forced to repent but the judgments visited on him will cause him to make the choice to accept Jesus. After all if God can change the "greatest sinner" Saul into Paul in a very short time how can he not convert some wimpy sinner like me and you. God is not willing for any to be lost 2Peter 3:9.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
I think it is you who is missing the point. You and I both know that a lot of people die in their sins, so your belief system really revolves around a forced salvation process which takes place after death. The Bible doesn't talk about this process, but that is besides the point. When you tell people that everyone will automatically be saved after death, whether or not that knew Christ, they will see no reason to come to Christ while living. They will continue to live in darkness, and let the auto-salvation process take care if them after they die. They will die in their sins and be lost forever. This is what makes ur a very dangerous teaching.
This is a great example of the absolute mindless disregard of some for the beliefs and words of others ...
Finn, you are a peach i tell ya', a prime example of traditional fundamentalist closed mindedness and intolerance.
Its really something to see someone just outright disregard the words of another and then come right back and repeat the same ignorant assumptions that have already been answered.
The bible is clear that God is like a refiners fire ... It is clear that Gods fiery judgments are for the purpose of purifying and cleansing those who are judged. Does this process of purification and refinement/cleansing mean that God is forcing those who are judged to repent and learn righteousness?
God knows the secrets of every persons heart and mind. He knows exactly what it will take to influence every single one of us in the right way so that eventually, sooner or later, we will be drawn to him and repent and believe in truth and confess Christ is lord.
People like Finn are insulted by this fact, because they really like to believe that they are the ones responsible for their own repentance and faith. They are lifted up in pride and believe in their wayward hearts that they deserve to go to heaven and have earned their place beside Christ, having accomplished their own salvation by taking advantage of some mythical opportunity which they believe Christ only provided for them to save themselves.
They believe Faith is the currency of heaven, and that they are buying their first class tickets to paradise ...
Thanks, I'll add 'closed minded', 'intolerant' and 'prideful' to the long list of things I have already been called today by other URs.
That "UR love"..... sigh....
The same love that Christ and Paul demonstrated as a matter of fact, every time they criticized the religious elite of their time who believed that they were the only ones who were going to be saved and thought that they were better than everybody else.
I like to call a spade a spade, and get down to the roots of the issues at hand.
The scriptures teach all about those who are hardened in their hearts and who are hypocrites and liars and extortioners who use threats of violence and spiritual intimidation to control others and manipulate them into subservience, who taught that God would eternally imprison and torture most of humanity ...
They were known as the pharisees, and i must admit you remind me very much of those people ...
Does that mean that i do not love you ... To the contrary, i do love you, but i don't love the evil things your believe and teach to be "the truth". And i certainly don't like the parts of your heart and mind that are the source of your desire to espouse such diabolical teachings as such.
I'll ask you again, do you believe Jesus and the apostle Paul were hypocrites for teaching others to love their neighbors while they went around criticizing the religions elite for being hypocrites and for having hardened hearts and for being liars and gainsayers and spiritually violent and extortioners ... etc.?
The same love that Christ and Paul demonstrated as a matter of fact, every time they criticized the religious elite of their time who believed that they were the only ones who were going to be saved and thought that they were better than everybody else.
And I thought I heard it all. lol.
There is a big difference between you and Jesus. Jesus knew the hearts of the people he judged, and knew they were hypocrites, while you call me a hyporite, closed minded, intolerant and prideful etc etc only because I don't agree with your views. You don't know the first thing about me. Jesus is the judge, and you are not. Get used to it.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 12-13-2010 at 07:18 PM..
There is a big difference between you and Jesus. Jesus knew the hearts of the people he judged, and knew they were hypocrites, while you call me a hyporite, closed minded, intolerant and prideful etc etc only because I don't agree with your views. You don't know the first thing about me. Jesus is the judge, and you are not. Get used o it.
Lets get it straight, i call you close minded, intolerant, and prideful because you believe and teach that most of humanity deserves to be tortured for ever and that it is a good thing, being the divine justice of God, and that you don't deserve it but instead you deserve to go to heaven and live in the lap of luxury in paradise simply because you claim to believe in Jesus ...
The fact is, many people draw close to God with their mouths but are far away from him in their hearts, because their hearts are hardened and they believe that true Justice means eye for an eye and they thus believe God will torture most of humanity for ever(or torture them for a little while before he annihilates them) even though Christ, who is the express image of God, told us to love our enemies in order to be like God and that God is good to the ungrateful and the wicked.
If you tell a wicked ungrateful person that God loves them and that he is good to the wicked and ungrateful, and then proceed to tell them that if they do not comply with the necessary rules of earning "the free gift" of salvation then God will torture them for eternity(or annihilate them), you are literally contradicting yourself and being an hypocrite at the same time ...
I think that one of the reasons ETers and URers will never agree is the concept of justice. Some people believed that people should get what they deserve. If they are evil they should be punished. If they refuse to accept Jesus they are evil. If they've never heard of Jesus they are evil. If they die in sin they deserve what they get-Hell.
I know it upsets some people that someone can lead a corrupt life and still end up in heaven with God. They don't understand that the person will not be accept in heaven till they have repented and been changed into the image of God. This will take some longer than other( some beat with many stripes some with few stripes). Some are not satisfied unless "those people" get what they deserve. Would it not be better if they repent and are saved? In some people minds this means they got away with it and to them that is not fair.
Bur remember what God said, My ways are high than yours. Also in Romans 4:17 it says that God " calls though things that are not as though they were." God see us for what we will become not what we are now.
God is a loving Father and what father would punish his child by burning them for ever in literal fire. What justice is infinite punishment for a finite crime. God's way is to save all his children by having them repent and be changed into his image. God does not desire anyone to be lost and they will not be.
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