ET, Annihilation, & UR----I Think I've Finally Figured it Out! (punishment, belief)

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

There's your common sense.

And there's yours too!



Bless you my sweet enlightened sister!

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

He created a temporal torture chamber for those who "transgressed" His covenant.
You have to be "in" the covenant to "transgress" it.
Outside of covenant, no spiritual life or death. You are just a beast, who returns to the dust...Eccl 3

Part of YOU is just a beast too.

You deny it? Then "you're" a liar!

( yet not you but sin which dwells within you)

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

the OT does not even mention hell or the concept of eternal punishment even once.

Yep. Gen. 3 is clear. WE are enduring the same "wrath" today (ie: I work and my brow sweats - and my bones HURT!) .

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

No, that's not what I said. I said that certain passages in the New Testament having to do with the destiny of souls have been corrupted beyond repair.

That is your opinion and you have not provided any proof to support it. I provided you proof that even the OT which is older has not suffered the damage you speak of. What makes you think the newer NT would have suffered more damage that the older OT?

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

And there's yours too!



Bless you my sweet enlightened sister!

Thanks FB!! Bless you too dear brother!

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

That is your opinion and you have not provided any proof to support it. I provided you proof that even the OT which is older has not suffered the damage you speak of. What makes you think the newer NT would have suffered more damage that the older OT?

Good heavens, Finn. You obviously haven't been following the innumerable discussions we've been having on this topic. Or you'd know the answer to your accusation. (sigh) Okay. one more time:

Eternal Damnation: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment"

Annihilation: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

Universal Redemption: "And I, if I be lifted up, shall draw all men to Myself"

The OT was written in Hebrew and has been well protected, especially the Torah. That is why it is more error free. In the original dead sea scrolls the Hebrew word for 'hell" never appears because one doesn't exist and Hebrews never possessed the concept of an eternal torture chamber. They used "Sheol" "the pit" & "the grave" to describe where the souls of BOTH the good and the evil went after death.

But you already know all this, Finn. if you've been reading all the post and/or doing your research online. Why are you making me repeat all this all over again?

The New Testament, being newer, was exposed to all sorts of underhanded scalawags who tried their best to pollute the writing of the NT authors, and they succeeded marvelously.

PS Here's what Gary Amirault, respected theologian and author, has to say, who I mimic without ever having knowingly read any of his stuff until just this moment.

When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

But you already know all this, Finn. if you've been reading all the post and/or doing your research online. Why are you aking me repeat all this all over again?

I am not asking you to repeat your opinion, I am asking you to prove it. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong in having an opinon, but don't offer it as fact, when it is not.

[twin.spin]

Jesus read from the scriptures, knew them more than anyone. Yet never once did he say that scriptures were in error.
He quite likely may have read one of the dead sea manuscripts.
Jesus said he saw Abraham John 8:56-58
Jesus said King David called him "LORD" Mark 12:34-36 which in the NT was the equilivent of OT's "Jehovah"

If 1 Chronicles 28:9 were not accurate, Jesus would have said so.

KJV: And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind:
for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:
if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

YLT: And thou, Solomon, my son, know the God of thy father, and serve Him with a perfect heart, and with a willing mind,
for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding;
if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

I am not asking you to repeat your opinion, I am asking you to prove it. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong in having an opinon, but don't offer it as fact, when it is not.

Okay, Finn, let's try it this way. You explain (if you care to, of course) why three equally different viewpoints exist in Christian circles today and why these Christians have scriptures to solidly support each one, when we know that only one can be right if, as you assert, errors do ot exist in the scriptures. Now I've heard the argument that two of them are misapplying the scriptures and obviously you would side with the ET'ers who say the annihiliationists and the UR'ers are the ones doing this. It's an opinion because the other two obviously say the same about their detractors.

If we can just get that far with your explanation we've accomplished a lot. Go for it.

[.sparrow.]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Look carefully at #8 above. What did I say earlier about hell being a contrivance by people in power to keep the masses under foot with the sword of fear hanging over their head? Greek philosopher Plato said as much 300 years before Christ. He said that rabble needed to be kept in check with the idea of a torment in the afterlife that would instill fear in them.

Just wanted to talk about something real quick here since you pointed this out.

Also, think about the belief of annihilation... once you're dead, that's it. The "wicked" are destroyed. Those who believe annihilation believe actual human beings are destroyed. Snuffed out like a candle. How is this any better at changing people...than what they were attempting to do with the idea of eternal torment?

It isn't.

For a person (who is not currently seeing some things, who is not following down a path of love in this world) to think that well, y'know when it's all said and done, I won't have to do anything but keep on with my selfish, loveless ways, who cares, it's all vanity anyway, it's all futile anyway, I could die tomorrow and that would be it, it would be all over, boom, dead, nothing, adios, goodbye. (There are plenty of people who are good, loving people who believe this as well, but I am not talking about them right nowm for a very specific reason.) If we are just annihilated... where is the Glory in that? Where is the POWER of love in that? Where is the TRUTH in "LOVE CONQUERS ALL" in that???? Ask. Keep asking..... Where?


"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope.."

Think about the story of the prodigal son. I mean, really think hard about it. The father's love. The son that stayed behind and his way of thinking when his brother returned. The son that returned... "we are subjected to futility/vanity in HOPE..." think about it. In HOPE. If the Father had shut the door in his face and turned his back at ANY point... then it is all meaningless. But he did not. And neither will the GREAT FATHER, OUR CREATOR. ever. Love truly conquers all. ALL. Love doesn't "maybe" conquer all. It isn't "Love CAN/MAY conquer all". NO. It is "LOVE CONQUERS ALL." No matter how far in the darkness (not understanding love) we go.... He is the good shepherd, his arm will always reach farther. He came to save that which was LOST.

God is love.
Everything on our wide paths to destruction is being consumed by LOVE.
Love conquers all.
All of our hate.
All of our anger.
All of our fear.
LOVE (God) will CONQUER IT.
It's not US. It is HIM.
He is accomplishing a good thing in each and everyone of us.
We are all different. And we are all going to have a different "prodigal son" story. His POWER is being shown through each of our lives.
What.. you think that Hitler's evil is more powerful than God's love??
Really? Think about it. LOVE conquers ALL. That is such a picture of Glory and POWER! If even one person.... were lost forever... then God is not all-powerful. LOVE wouldn't be able to "conquer all". Love loses some of it's power when that person is annihilated. It says that No... no, indeed, love does NOT conquer all.

Have FAITH.
Set your sights higher than what religion wants to convince you of.
Set your sights HIGHER!

This isn't about "good" people going to heaven, "bad" people going to hell or being annihilated. That is such a defeated, weak, impotent view.
This is about EVERY human being created.... being subjected to futility... for a reason. Love conquers all. I believe it! Do you?

The path to destruction is wide, and many walk upon it. Many... yeah, how about each and every one of us?! Many things walk upon that path of destruction. This is a GOOD thing. You need to look at in the right way.


LOVE is what transforms us.
Annihilation does not transform anyone.
When you really think of what it means, it means the Creator made a mistake in making you. No. The Creator knew exactly what He had in mind when creating you. He knows the number of hairs on your head, and He tells you that you are worth many, many sparrows. He has a plan for you. And it is not to ulitmately snuff you out like a candle flame. The way I see it, He is creating a tapestry of His love. Each of our lives are a thread in that tapestry. Each thread is VITAL to the whole. Each life will be a MAGNFICIENT, GLORIOUS testimony. Of How LOVE CONQUERS ALL. All non-love ever in the history of all creation is being CONQUERED. It's the most beautiful thing I can possibly imagine. And not a single soul can be absent from it. Not mine. Not yours. Not Hitlers. "Every knee will bow" is a visual, a powerful visual of what HE is ultimately doing here. 100% non-love will be conquered by LOVE. These are not just mere words. Don't just pass them by without really thinking DEEPLY about what all of this means. How does LOVE conquer ALL?
How is "darkness" defeated? By light. How is non-love defeated? By Love.

What is the power and the glory in a soul not ultimatey being transformed? There is NONE. Zero.
When you annihilate one person, you are saying that non-love has some sort of power, that it is somehow GREATER Than LOVE.
All of the non-love here on earth WILL BE CONQUERED. Every instance of NON-LOVE will be OVERTURNED. Think of the implications.

Where sin abounds, Grace abounds that much more. You've got to see this in the way it was intended.
Love conquers all.

LOVE ultimately wins. In every single life ever lived. The transforming power of LOVE will ultimately be realized. What a glorious testimony. I can't think of a more magnificent picture.

Set your sights higher. Hope BEYOND what you have hoped in the past. Think more about the POWER of love and what that means, what it will ULTIMATELY mean, and how it relates to each human being.

The brokeness of our lives, He uses this to create something far beyond what we thought would be possible. Remember, A Creator CREATES. Do not put limits on exactly WHAT He is creating here...

peace,
sparrow