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Did Jesus teach the disciples to pray in vain?
One aspect that is in my itty bitty mind:
What was the reply when the disciples asked Jesus how to pray, what was His response?
Here it is:
Matthew 6:9-15 -
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Again in Luke 11:1-4
He is recorded, i guess to make it plain,
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
The part that stuck out at me this morn was this:
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Do we have any scripture that tells what Gods' will is?
i think so, so what do you think?
How about this:
Eze 33:11 -
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Is this something God wants, but can't have?
How about this one:
Isa 45-22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Seems to me that God has made it known what His desires are, are we to think it won't come to be?
Then Jesus also expands the "How to" with these:
Mt 6:6 -
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
There is scripture that says that to stand on the streets is a show and the ones that do that get their reward now (attention of the masses)
and this one:
Mt 6:7 -
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking
isn't this exactly what the catholic church does when the rosary is prayed? Just wondering about that one
and this one:
Lu 6:28 -
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
When our fellow countrymen where getting their heads chopped by their tormentors were the churches calling for the prayers for the ones chopping off heads as well as the ones being chopped?
Did Jesus teach the disciples to pray in vain?
One aspect that is in my itty bitty mind:
What was the reply when the disciples asked Jesus how to pray, what was His response?
Here it is:
Matthew 6:9-15 -
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Again in Luke 11:1-4
He is recorded, i guess to make it plain,
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
The part that stuck out at me this morn was this:
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Do we have any scripture that tells what Gods' will is?
i think so, so what do you think?
How about this:
Eze 33:11 -
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Is this something God wants, but can't have?
How about this one:
Isa 45-22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Seems to me that God has made it known what His desires are, are we to think it won't come to be?
Then Jesus also expands the "How to" with these:
Mt 6:6 -
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
There is scripture that says that to stand on the streets is a show and the ones that do that get their reward now (attention of the masses)
and this one:
Mt 6:7 -
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking
isn't this exactly what the catholic church does when the rosary is prayed? Just wondering about that one
and this one:
Lu 6:28 -
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
When our fellow countrymen where getting their heads chopped by their tormentors were the churches calling for the prayers for the ones chopping off heads as well as the ones being chopped?
Just wondering
Peace and Gods' love
There are many in this forum who do NOT believe God gets what He desires. The believe that man will eventually rob God of being able to accomplish what He desires of us all. Look at anyone that preaches annihilation or eternal torment and you will see people that deny God is All Powerful. For if He is all powerful then obviously He will accomplish His will. They fail to realize that He isn't done. He is still at work accomplishing those things He desires.
Many just don't know how to pray. God knows everything we need before we even petition Him. Prayer is for us (a gift from God) to bring God's divine nature and plan for us to a more personal understanding. We are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
I tell others that if we truely begin to understand God then this knowledge begins to remove what causes our death.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Now what is an "elder" in that verse? - it doesn't refer to someone of greater age but one of greater knowledge of God's divine nature. To annoint one with oil is to give them of the Spirit which is delivered in words of KNOWLEDGE.
Do we have any scripture that tells what Gods' will is?
i think so, so what do you think?
How about this:
Eze 33:11 - Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Is this something God wants, but can't have?
Did God desire that we obey the 10 Commandments?
Of course He did, but we know for a fact that it did not happen. God knew too, but he wanted to make us aware of His desire. He also made us aware of His desire that people should believe in Jesus, but too did not happen. He made us aware of His desire that all men be saved, but that has not happened either.
If God desires to create a new galaxy, and decides to use his authority to make it happen, then it will happen, but the 10 Commandments is a perfect example of God desiring something, while choosing to not use his authority to enforce it. He wants us to obey, and worship Him out of our own free will. THAT is His true desire. It brings Him no pleasure to force people to worship Him, just like it brings Him no pleasure to see the wicked choose to die in their sins.
Of course He did, but we know for a fact that it did not happen. God knew too, but he wanted to make us aware of His desire. He also made us aware of His desire that people should believe in Jesus, but too did not happen. He made us aware of His desire that all men be saved, but that has not happened either.
If God desires to create a new galaxy, and decides to use his authority to make it happen, then it will happen, but the 10 Commandments is a perfect example of God desiring something, while choosing to not use his authority to enforce it. He wants us to obey, and worship Him out of our own free will. THAT is His true desire. It brings Him no pleasure to force people to worship Him, just like it brings Him no pleasure to see the wicked choose to die in their sins.
Tell me us Finn_Jarber how it is that the Carnal can be saved:
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Sin is what separates us from God. Sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law, which is the 10 Commandments. If we are not obeying all 10 we are in deed committing sin and God will not listen to our prayers.
We are warned in the Bible that at the end of man's 6000 years of ruling himself, there is going to be a reckoning, a 3.5 years of Great Tribulation when the 'Great Multitude' of the Church will be subjected to a terrible persecution as a consequence of their willful transgression of the Commandments. God planned it that way in order for his children who break his Law a chance to wash their robes white in Martyrdom and be found worthy to become eternal saints and rule with Jesus Christ in the Millennium.
Vain is the wrong word to use and the tirm is out of charcter of the Lord God and Jesus said that the phaisee prayed in vain , Don`t be like the Phaisees... Vain means false pride, conceited, useless, unsuccessful,,,,,,..... For a rightous tirm for victory is ``Pray in Jubilance, or excited, exulted, prayer would wake Heaven up and bring the boldness The Lord seeks.............
I don't think our prayers are ever in vain and I believe the Lord hears all of them, whether we're following the 10 commandments or not. That's just some people's own idea and legalism speaking. God hears a sinner's prayer because we're all sinners!! Any sincere prayer is never in vain.
i guess that my ability to get what is in my head and into the written form is still lacking.
The main point that i was thinking is that if the mainstream churchianity thinks that God will lose the vast majority of His creation and will be in torture for all eternity then they think it is Gods' will, it is what he desires, OR, God desires that all come to be saved,,,,but He can't get what He wants.
Jesus taught to pray that Gods' will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
If anyone thinks that God is not or will not have what He desires is sorely mistaken, they point to the things that they think proves He does not always get what He wants, but that puts God in the same boat as humans by limiting Him into a timeframe.
To use a sport analogy:
The ballgame ain't over folks, but the timeclock is still counting down and the only one who knows how much time is left........is God
i guess that my ability to get what is in my head and into the written form is still lacking.
The main point that i was thinking is that if the mainstream churchianity thinks that God will lose the vast majority of His creation and will be in torture for all eternity then they think it is Gods' will, it is what he desires, OR, God desires that all come to be saved,,,,but He can't get what He wants.
Jesus taught to pray that Gods' will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
If anyone thinks that God is not or will not have what He desires is sorely mistaken, they point to the things that they think proves He does not always get what He wants, but that puts God in the same boat as humans by limiting Him into a timeframe.
To use a sport analogy:
The ballgame ain't over folks, but the timeclock is still counting down and the only one who knows how much time is left........is God
Yes, you have spotted the common fallacy of their argument. They leave in midgame and declare a winner.
I don't think our prayers are ever in vain and I believe the Lord hears all of them, whether we're following the 10 commandments or not. That's just some people's own idea and legalism speaking. God hears a sinner's prayer because we're all sinners!! Any sincere prayer is never in vain.
I think it is a fair question: Did God desire us to obey the 10 commandments, and did God desire us to believe in Jesus?
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