The Book of Revelation is Complete Fraud and Heresy! (Epistles, myth, women)
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City-Data has asked me to update this thread so I will. I direct you readers to chuckmann's excellent post No. 72 above as a perfect rebuttal to apologists who try to defend an indefensible, totally heretical muck that would never have been included in the New Testament, but for Augustine's corrupt bribes and arm-twisting to get it included. Few people know that Augustine was a basket case---a life-long slave to twisted pagan theologies that his tortured psyche could never rid itself of and so there was nothing left for him to do but try to marry them with emerging Christian doctrine. That is why we have the mess we have today that calls itself "Christianity".
Wow. Chuckmann's post does have relevant criticism of Revelation and it is an enigmatic book, at best. But the OP may be a bit strongly worded. I believe you have misidentified Augustine with Athanasius, Thrill . . . Athanasius was the principal Bishop to get Revelation included in the canon. The allegations of corruption and political coercion are probably valid. As for Augustine . . . he is the father of some heinous doctrines (original sin, hell, etc.) . . . but he is also the author of some insightful philosophy . . . notably his ideas on Will and Time.
Revelation is and has always been a controversial tinderbox in Christian scripture. As I have repeatedly said . . . anyone who thinks they know what it says or what it is intended to convey is treading on very,very thin ice. As history . . . it reads like an anti-Roman polemic against Nero (anti-Christ) and the devastating war that destroyed the temple in Jerusalem. IMO . . . extracting any spiritual inspirations from it is a dangerous game.
The Romans armies proved to be God's long arm of the law in the year 70 against apostate Jerusalem.
The political/military world of today can prove to be God's modern-day long arm of the law to carry out His justice starting with apostate Christendom
[ so-called Christian in name only ] who has run afoul playing false to God and His Word. - Revelation 17 v 17
With backing the United Nations can be strengthened to turn on the world's religious groups.
The UN already sees a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing with religious terrorism.
With a bad economy the wealth the ' houses of worship ' have amassed could look very attractive and easy for the political taking.
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The Apocalypse announces itself as written by one whose name was John.
Tradition tells us firmly and almost unanimously that the author is John the Apostle,
the author of the Fourth Gospel. The language, the doctrine, the characteristics
of the Book confirm this. They manifest a Johannine hand.
I have two dozen reputable Biblical scholars standing by who tell you just the opposite: Revelation has NONE of the characteristics that are so readily apparent in the gospel of John. Let's have a look:
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The Greek literary styles of the John of Revelation and John the Apostle were examined in very early Christianity to prove these are two different writers. Eighteen hundred years ago, Dionysius (Bishop of the Patriarchy of Alexandria) stated that "Revelation" was not written by the same person who wrote John's Gospel and Letters. (Eusebius' History of the Church, 7.25) His opinion came from his comparing their two writing styles and found Revelation's John to be entirely different from John the Apostle and any other New Testament writer.
Two of the most influential of the early church fathers argue unequivocally that the writer of Revelation is NOT John the Apostle.
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"Revelation" is a detailed prediction of the future. This violates Jesus' direct instructions to live a day at a time and not be concerned about the future (Mt. 6:25-34, esp. 34
Jesus Himself gave precise prophecies, but this entire book, as presently interpreted, is one gigantic future prophecy by someone other than Jesus.
Quote:
In the beginning of Revelation, John says there are seven spirits before Jesus' throne. Jesus only told us of one - the Holy Spirit. Then Jesus says he is "the Alpha and Omega." This statement is new to the Bible, something Jesus never said before, and is not needed. John Apostle in his Gospel already taught us, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was made man. (John 1:1-14)
Direct contradiction to Jesus.
Quote:
John makes predictions addressed only to the seven churches in Asia, and not to the whole church, the Church Universal - the whole body of Christ. These predicted events did not happen to those seven churches "soon," in the near time.
Only a false prophet would misfire so badly.
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Revelation proclaims Jesus as saying that salvation of the whole Ephesus group depends on them loving him more (2:4). "Revelation" contradicts Apostle John's Gospel that teaches salvation depends only on belief in Jesus (John 11: 25,26)
Another heresy.
Quote:
Revelation specifically states that works are the basis salvation (chapter 20:12-13). The Gospels state that Jesus saves us by his death and resurrection. (Mt. 27: 51-54)
John Patmos is obviously an Old testament Jew holding tightly to his Jewish traditions in Revelation. Revelation continues the ancient argument about "works" per James versus "faith" alone (Paul) that is explained in Paul in Romans 10, particularly 10:4).
These are just a few of the innumerable conflicts between Revelation and everything that comes before it. It cannot be reconciled in any way with Jesus' doctrine as found in the Gospels.
"Revelation" is a detailed prediction of the future. This violates jesus' direct instructions to live a day at a time and not be concerned about the future (mt. 6:25-34, esp. 34
Jesus himself gave precise prophecies, but this entire book, as presently interpreted, is one gigantic future prophecy by someone other than jesus.
No, prophecy does not violate Jesus' instructions about not worrying about the cares of your life. Prophecy concerns God's program for the future. Jesus gave the revelation to John to give to the churches.
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In the beginning of Revelation, John says there are seven spirits before Jesus' throne. Jesus only told us of one - the Holy Spirit. Then Jesus says he is "the Alpha and Omega." This statement is new to the Bible, something Jesus never said before, and is not needed. John Apostle in his Gospel already taught us, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was made man. (John 1:1-14)
Direct contradiction to jesus.
The seven Spirits is probably another descriptive title of God the Holy Spirit as in Isaiah 11:2-3.
Isa. 11:1 [Reference to Jesus] Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. 2] And the Spirit of the LORD will rest on him--the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
No, the phrase 'I am the Alpha and Omega' (Rev. 1:8) is not new to the Bible. It means in the Greek, 'I am the first and the last' and is used of God in for example Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
Quote:
John makes predictions addressed only to the seven churches in Asia, and not to the whole church, the Church Universal - the whole body of Christ. These predicted events did not happen to those seven churches "soon," in the near time.
Only a false prophet would misfire so badly.
While John was instructed to address his letter to these seven churches of Asia, they were representative of churches though out the church age. John's letter circulated eventually to all the churches. Not just to these seven.
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Revelation proclaims Jesus as saying that salvation of the whole Ephesus group depends on them loving him more (2:4). "Revelation" contradicts Apostle John's Gospel that teaches salvation depends only on belief in Jesus (John 11: 25,26)
Another heresy.
You are falsely assuming that eternal salvation is the issue here. It is not. What is being addressed is the issue of the church being God's representative in the world. That is what the lampstand being removed out of its place means. Many churches today are in that same situation.
Quote:
Revelation specifically states that works are the basis salvation (chapter 20:12-13). The Gospels state that Jesus saves us by his death and resurrection. (Mt. 27: 51-54)
John patmos is obviously an old testament jew holding tightly to his jewish traditions in revelation. Revelation continues the ancient argument about "works" per james versus "faith" alone (paul) that is explained in paul in romans 10, particularly 10:4).
These are just a few of the innumerable conflicts between revelation and everything that comes before it. It cannot be reconciled in any way with jesus' doctrine as found in the gospels.
No, Revelation does not teach that salvation is by works. It teaches that salvation is a free gift as per Revelation 22:17.
Everyone, whether believer or unbeliever will be judged on their works. The works of the believer, saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone will be judged or evaluated at the judgment seat of Christ for the purpose of reward (1 Corinthians 3:12-15, 2 Cor. 5:10). Even if the believer's works are found to be wood, hay, and stubble, and are burned up, he himself is saved (1 Cor. 3:15).
The unbeliever on the other hand, died without receiving Christ as Savior and therefore never received the imputation of God's own perfect righteousness. Therefore he has to stand on the merits of his own imperfect righteousness which God cannot accept. His works will be brought up at the great white throne judgment to show that no matter how many works of righteousness he had performed in his life, they are meaningless with regard to his standing before God and cannot earn him salvation. Having rejected Christ, the unbeliever is condemned not for his sins which were paid for by Christ on the cross, but rather, he is condemned on the basis of having only his own imperfect righteousness which can never measure up to God's perfect standard.
Jesus' teachings during His public ministry mainly concerned the kingdom which He had offered to Israel, but since they rejected Him was delayed until His second Advent. Yet He did address things pertaining to the Tribulation in Matthew chapter's 24-25. And so, No, The Book of Revelation does not conflict with Jesus' teachings.
You are making judgments about something in which you are lacking in understanding.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-17-2014 at 05:14 PM..
Just because one does not understand scripture, does not mean that it is unintelligible mumbo jumbo ... any more than any other part of the Bible. Revelation is not as complicated as many simply 'assume' it is. In fact, probably about 80-percent of the symbols are clearly explained either in Revelation or elsewhere in scripture.
Further, the seals, trumpets and bowls are consistent with other judgments in scripture, most specifically, the signs at the time of Israel's exodus from Egypt. .... Oh well, no sense trying to confuse this discussion among 'Bible experts' with facts or details.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ serves a number of very specific purposes in scripture. "Those who have eyes and ears to see and hear what the Spirit is saying" in Revelation and elsewhere --- clearly see what God is telling the 7-Churches and the church of all times. Those who simply use this forum (and others I assume) to denigrate the Bible ... will always be confused by, and unable to understand, the things of God (I Cor 2:14)
Just because one does not understand scripture, does not mean that it is unintelligible mumbo jumbo ... any more than any other part of the Bible. Revelation is not as complicated as many simply 'assume' it is. In fact, probably about 80-percent of the symbols are clearly explained either in Revelation or elsewhere in scripture.
Further, the seals, trumpets and bowls are consistent with other judgments in scripture, most specifically, the signs at the time of Israel's exodus from Egypt. .... Oh well, no sense trying to confuse this discussion among 'Bible experts' with facts or details.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ serves a number of very specific purposes in scripture. "Those who have eyes and ears to see and hear what the Spirit is saying" in Revelation and elsewhere --- clearly see what God is telling the 7-Churches and the church of all times. Those who simply use this forum (and others I assume) to denigrate the Bible ... will always be confused by, and unable to understand, the things of God (I Cor 2:14)
I agree. The Book of Revelation is actually easy to understand if you have studied and understand other parts of Scripture. It is a disclosure of things to come and is meant to be understood.
Some posters have asked if certain posters are asked to bring up an old thread..The answer is every one of you may be asked to update an old thread for further discussion. Anytime you are taking the tour of old threads there is a note (in yellow) at the bottom of the last page that suggests this
I've been onto this fraudulence book for quite some time now and have been studying it's history, it's authenticity, it's harmonization with the other 26 books of the NT and have come to the conclusion, as have other scholars, that
But don't take my "biased' opinion as gospel. Read:
It's common knowledge that the letters were written by two different authors...If one dismisses John, Acts, all of Paul's letters, one sees a different scew on things...
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