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Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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It's something I've always thought about. If aborted babies get a free pass to heaven then isn't it ultimately a good thing? Do most Christians who believe in ET think about this? Actually just NOW I realised that this was the reason I didn't feel that strongly about the abortion debate when I believed in eternal torment. It almost made me ENVIOUS of these little ones.
After all, if the baby is allowed to live it will just grow up to probably go to hell and be another one of the 'lost.' Reminds me of a site that tried to explain why God killed babies in the OT. They said God was actually being MERCIFUL to them because they would have grown up to be sinful idol worshipers and have gone to hell. Exact same argument pro-abortionists use.
Now I don't believe in ET, and am not so sure about God-killing babies in the OT, I feel more strongly that abortion is unjust.
It's something I've always thought about. If aborted babies get a free pass to heaven then isn't it ultimately a good thing? Do most Christians who believe in ET think about this? Actually just NOW I realised that this was the reason I didn't feel that strongly about the abortion debate when I believed in eternal torment. It almost made me ENVIOUS of these little ones.
After all, if the baby is allowed to live it will just grow up to probably go to hell and be another one of the 'lost.' Reminds me of a site that tried to explain why God killed babies in the OT. They said God was actually being MERCIFUL to them because they would have grown up to be sinful idol worshipers and have gone to hell. Exact same argument pro-abortionists use.
Now I don't believe in ET, and am not so sure about God-killing babies in the OT, I feel more strongly that abortion is unjust.
Since we all have free will given by God, I don't think you can really say that the baby would grow up to be unrighteous and end up in hell because none of us (Christians) did. We were given the chance at life first and foremost to even grow up to choose who we will serve. And Jesus Christ our lord and savior ALWAYS calls us to him throughout our lives. That's something I learned. The only people who are in Hell are the ones that even after many calls choose to be eternally separated from God. They didn't respond and had no desire to. So don't think that every aborted baby (if they had been given life) would be on a path to Hell. I used to think that. Matter fact, as I think about how we are in the last days, I still hold a tinge of belief that perhaps it was better off that they were aborted and sent to Heaven to grow up in righteousness and be saved then deal with the terrible things going on here and fall into the cracks of sin like billions have already. Your question has me re-thinking my own views. Why do I find abortion wrong?
I still think it's murder of God's children. I have actually seen many photos of what an aborted baby looks like and if you did, you would NEVER think abortion is right again. You would recognize and know that it's one of the most disgusting, vile, and evil things that you have ever seen. It's flat out murder of an a innocent child. It's literally a small underdeveloped CHILD. People think sex is something that all humans are inbred with and it's nothing to be cherished. WRONG. Sex is a DIVINE thing given to us by God. When a man and a female come together as one and have sex (unprotected of course), the moment the sperm reaches the egg, a human spirit is created. The body is simply forming around it. It's NOTHING to play games about. Nothing to take with a grain of salt. You are not only creating a spirit but a physical being as well. And then to kill that child's physical form. I can't even imagine God's fury about that! Just imagine how many aborted children are going up into heaven everyday from around the world. Sure, they are safe from the sins of life and coming tribulations and judgements but God did not intend for children to be sent to Heaven for being killed on Earth with no knowledge of the gospel and forsaking of sin. He wanted us to be saved by our own merit and choices. He created our bodies so we could honor him with them. Who knows how many preachers and saints those aborted babies could have been? Who knows if they could have saved a whole bunch of humanity? What would have happened had Jesus been aborted? Oh I hear crickets now. NONE of us would have been here after that. So going back to my original view, I don't think it's right. Regardless of whether the children are spiritually saved for an eternity (thank God!). They were meant to meet and accept God on their own by their choices in life. They were meant to struggle with sin to overcome it just like us. They were meant to enjoy life here on Earth for a time as we were. Otherwise, none of us would have been alive here to talk with each other, to love one another, to learn and live, and come into the knowledge of God.
Last edited by allenk893; 12-29-2010 at 01:08 AM..
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,076,059 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893
Since we all have free will given by God, I don't think you can really say that the baby would grow up to be unrighteous and end up in hell because none of us (Christians) did. We were given the chance at life first and foremost to even grow up to choose who we will serve. And Jesus Christ our lord and savior ALWAYS calls us to him throughout our lives. That's something I learned. The only people who are in Hell are the ones that even after many calls choose to be eternally separated from God. They didn't respond and had no desire to. So don't think that every aborted baby (if they had been given life) would be on a path to Hell. I used to think that. Matter fact, as I think about how we are in the last days, I still hold a tinge of belief that perhaps it was better off that they were aborted and sent to Heaven to grow up in righteousness and be saved then deal with the terrible things going on here and fall into the cracks of sin like billions have already. Your question has me re-thinking my own views. Why do I find abortion wrong?
I still think it's murder of God's children. I have actually seen many photos of what an aborted baby looks like and if you did, you would NEVER think abortion is right again. You would recognize and know that it's one of the most disgusting, vile, and evil things that you have ever seen. It's flat out murder of an a innocent child. It's literally a small underdeveloped CHILD. People think sex is something that all humans are inbred with and it's nothing to be cherished. WRONG. Sex is a DIVINE thing given to us by God. When a man and a female come together as one and have sex (unprotected of course), the moment the sperm reaches the egg, a human spirit is created. The body is simply forming around it. It's NOTHING to play games about. Nothing to take with a grain of salt. You are not only creating a spirit but a physical being as well. And then to kill that child's physical form. I can't even imagine God's fury about that! Just imagine how many aborted children are going up into heaven everyday from around the world. Sure, they are safe from the sins of life and coming tribulations and judgements but God did not intend for children to be sent to Heaven for being killed on Earth with no knowledge of the gospel and forsaking of sin. He wanted us to be saved by our own merit and choices. He created our bodies so we could honor him with them. Who knows how many preachers and saints those aborted babies could have been? Who knows if they could have saved a whole bunch of humanity? What would have happened had Jesus been aborted? Oh I hear crickets now. NONE of us would have been here after that. So going back to my original view, I don't think it's right. Regardless of whether the children are spiritually saved for an eternity (thank God!). They were meant to meet and accept God on their own by their choices in life. They were meant to struggle with sin to overcome it just like us. They were meant to enjoy life here on Earth for a time as we were. Otherwise, none of us would have been alive here to talk with each other, to love one another, to learn and live, and come into the knowledge of God.
I've seen the photos too and I literally felt like throwing up. People who say they aren't human are so hard-hearted.
But getting back to my main point, most Christians consider the eternal destiny more important than life on earth. Was it not Jesus who said 'do not be afraid of the one you can kill the body but the one who will destroy both body and soul in hell?' If you believe he meant an ETERNITY of separation, suffering and misery, isn't mere death such a small price to pay? Yes SOME of these aborted babies may have become missionaries, but the sad fact is that abortionists have sent more people to heaven than missionaries in America. If you believe only a minority, maybe 1 out of 10 of Americans are true Christians, 9 out of 10 people will not make it.
That is how some Christians in days gone by thought it justifiable to force witches to repent and burn them on the stake. They thought they were saving their souls.
Without the threat of ET we can value life for life's sake.
Not sure about the baby, could turn out to be the one to cure cancer or other important thing to help humanity. I am concerned with the parents and those who kill the baby, what will happen to them on judgement day?
God can kill life since God created life----but only God has that choice, only God has free choice. People may be the vessel but they are not the creator.
[color=RoyalBlue]Moderator cut: Off topic I think those who are pro-choice should not be called pro-abortion -- no woman truly wants to have an abortion. But I dare say, there are men who do want to have wars.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,076,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong
[color=RoyalBlue]Moderator cut: Orphaned I think those who are pro-choice should not be called pro-abortion -- no woman truly wants to have an abortion. But I dare say, there are men who do want to have wars.
It's a pity pro-lifers are associated with Right-wing warmongers because I know plenty of pro-life people who are liberal, anti-war, anti-violence and some who aren't even religious.
All babies who are aborted from life, and all children to the age where they become knowing to sin. and all children to that age where the gospel is not taught to them, pass away are all collected and brought to Heaven to be developed into children of God....... So then the E T believers or Bibles believers as they are called should all be pro-life , because that is the will of God......In Deuteronomy 30: 19... The Lord God said..``I call heaven and earth to record this day against you , that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curses , therefor choose life, that both you and your seed may live``.........If people are not pro-life than they have created a belief in God that is a curse to their life and to their seed ........These nations go to war and fight the abusers terrorist or other abusers so the people in Nations and our nations can have peace and eventually have life........ See If a terrorist came a blew up your home and killed all the people , ... then the liberal anti-war said ``Its ok we don`t care about you and your people being killed , just do not fight back`` and the terrorist came and blew up more people and took over the country..... How long would the liberal take before he said ``Why did we not fight back?
Since we all have free will given by God, I don't think you can really say that the baby would grow up to be unrighteous and end up in hell because none of us (Christians) did.
Can you honestly say under the paradigm of an eternal separation from God that the majority of humanity is not choosing to go to hell including the majority of the congregations at any church?
Of all the talk I hear about the lost, all the wranings all the sermons of the doom and all the posts depicting the rise of the anti-christ and the vast number of poople heading to hell, I think from that perspective we can see that the majority of people in the world are not saved.
What you can say under the paradigm of Christianity and the belief in an eternal doom is that 100% of aborted babies go to heaven.
Can Christianity match that percentage in any conceivable way?
Abortion has a better salvation success percentage than Christianity does under any argument.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,076,059 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong
The reason for that association is because the Right-wing has for years used "abortion" as a wedge issue to gain the votes of many of the religious voters, to the point of making it sound like God himself is a Republican and giving the impression that they have the corner on that one issue. I do realize that there are liberals who are personally pro-life - but they generally do not vote for a candidate based on that one single issue. And admittedly, there are also moderate or centrist Democrats who are war hawks as well. So in truth, the lines do get crossed - and there is no black and white dividing line.
And that has probably hurt the pro-life cause...nothing wrong with believers stating their view about the sanctity of life, with this issue at least it almost seems we are largely relying on them to be the moral voice in the wilderness about this. The surprisingly large atheist/agnostic/other religion pro-life contingent gets no attention at all from a media who paints things with broad strokes.
I'm assuming you are pro-choice, Heartsong, which surprises me since you are a Universalist. I'm not sure if you believe these babies go to God or not, but if they're going to him anyway you'd be denying the richness of life on earth. Taking life does not accord with a God who values each and every one enough that he wants us to experience Life to the fullest. God did not create life for it to be mutilated so grotesquely like in some Medieval punishment.
It's something I've always thought about. If aborted babies get a free pass to heaven then isn't it ultimately a good thing?
The Bible does not say that they get a free pass to heaven.
People attribute David to stating his unborn child went to heaven - which he did not say. He said he would be with the child one day - well where is that? David never mentions heaven in the Bible. In the OT the assumption was that they were gathered to their people.
Also - Samuel was a prophet of God - yet when Saul & the medium conjured him up from the dead, Samuel came up from the ground - not down from the heavens above.
1 Sam. 28:13-15 - The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth." He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage. Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
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