But of the Son He says, ''Thy Throne O God, is Forever and Ever'' - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. (believe, scriptures)

[sciotamicks]

UR,

Do you realize what kingdom Christ is handing to the Father is 1 Cor 15:24?

It is the kingdom of his enemies, of sin and death....it is the kingdom that He puts under His feet....for those in Christ

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by herefornow

Well, I could say, "No I'm not," but you wouldn't believe me.


And using words like "no end," "everlasting," "forever and ever" doesn't mean what you're trying to make those verses say, but you know that. I'd put out a long list of verses to prove this to the folks out there, but I'm not at a computer right now.

God is immortal, the God of the ages, and Jesus was his son.

Simple stuff, really. We don't need Plato, God-man talk, or a priesthood to figure this out.

''but you know that.''

You accuse me of lying. I have just showed you two passages which show that both God the Father and Jesus Christ reign together.

The scriptures state more than once that the reign of Christ has no end. No honest person can deny that.

I'll not waste time debating this with you. I have listed the passages for all to see. A comparison of those passages show that Christ reigns forever. Continue to deny it if you will. What you believe is your affair.

[herefornow]

Originally Posted by Mike555

''but you know that.''

You accuse me of lying. I have just showed you two passages which show that both God the Father and Jesus Christ reign together.

The scriptures state more than once thatthe reign of Christ has no end. No honest person can deny that.

I'll not waste time debating this with you. I have listed the passages for all to see. A comparison of those passages show that Christ reigns forever. Continue to deny it if you will. What you believe is your affair.

I'm accusing you of misleading people, twisting what people like myself believe (UR or the Reconciliation of All Things) and believing tradition instead of love (God). I'm on the road right now, so I'll have to do my more serious debating with you in a couple of days. If you want to, that is.

[joeallcomm]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Both the Biblos online Interlinear Bible and the Scripture4all online Bible have it has plural plural. The Greek/English Interlinear New Testament UBS 4TH edition, Nestle-Aland 26th edition has it singular singular. It is irrelevent. A comparison of the passages listed show that Jesus Christ reigns forever. Without end.

No Sir Mike. You are leading people in MISUNDERSTANDINGS. Both the Biblos online Interlinear Bible and the Scripture4all online Bible do NOT have it in the PLURAL/PLURAL form. Please show us otherwise. Not only this, but the "Scripture4all" site translates the phrase "the eon of-the eon" (Singular-Singular). Go figure...eh. Matter of fact Mike, I dont think I have ever came across ANY Greek manuscripts that render this verse (Heb 1:8) in the PLURAL/PLURAL form.

But with all this we get a resounding "IT IS IRRELEVANT" from you. This Sir Mike, is very telling. It is as I said, "you can care less about what the Greek says".

I am aware of your challenge. It is meaningless. Of course both the singular and plural forms of aionios are used. To try and challenge someone to prove differently is silly. Singular-singular, singular-plural, plural-plural are all used.

No again Sir Mike....there are NOT singular and plural forms of the word 'aionios'. This word 'aionios' is the Transliteration form of the ADJECTIVE of 'aion'. There is no PLURAL forms of any ADJECTIVE that I know of.

Jesus Christ reigns throughout the eternal future, and eis ton aionia tou aionos has been used in Hebews 1:8 whether it is ages of the ages or age of the age to describe that fact.

You saying "WHETHER it is ages of the ages OR age of the age", is so telling here Mike. It just proves, again, that you can care less what the Greek Manuscripts say.

Now go back and read and compare the passages in the first post and if you are honest with yourself, you will have to acknowledge that Jesus' reign is eternal and that aionios or variations of the word are used to show this.

To make sure you understand what I said, it is indisputable that Jesus reigns forever and that the Greek word used to describe that fact is aionios or a variation such as aionon.

Incorrect again Mike. In you OP you lead people to misunderstandings again. Why do you do this? Here is what you state in your OP...

Luke 1:33 'And He (Jesus) will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that. Jesus' reign will have no end and is therefore eternal - aionas.

First, I want readers to notice here (you too Mike, for you, yourself, may not even know you are doing this), that Mike tells us the correct PLURAL transliteration of the word aion here as "aionas". Notice though that Mike's translation here has a SINGULAR ENGLISH NOUN 'forever' here, NOT a PLURAL noun. The correct rendering of this word is "ageS" or "eonS". If Mike wants to KEEP the ENGLISH word 'forever', which is in its singular form, then to follow with PROPER translation, by using a English PLURAL noun to translate a Greek PLURAL noun, he MUST transtate it 'foreverS' (with an 'S').

Second, and more revealing in this verse, is that the words 'NO END' is explicately said of the KINGDOM, NOT of Jesus' Reign as Mike says. So what happens to this 'Kingdom' then? We are not left to guess, for Mike posts us a scripture that tells us what happens to it.

Because of 1 Corinthians 15:24 which says, ''Then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25] For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.'', there are those who think that Jesus Christ will not rule forever.(emph. Joe's)

Now, it cant get no clearer then that Mike. If you can find a passage that says that Jesus' REIGN has 'no end', then you would have an arguement.

The reader must understand that the OP does not CARE about what is written in the Greek manuscripts. I will show you what I mean. Let’s look at the following illustration (all examples shown are from the KJV)

VERSE……………EYES SEE……….BELIEVE……………ENG. FORM

1Jn 2:17……………..forever…………..Eternity ………………..singular
1Pe 1:23……………..forever ………….Eternity………………..singular
1Pe 1:25……………..forever ………….Eternity………………..singular
2Co 11:31……………evermore……….Eternity…� ��…………...singular
2Co 9:9……………....forever………….Eternity ………………..singular
2Jn 1:2……………….forever………….Eternity ………………..singular
2Pe 2:17……………...forever………….Eternity ………………..singular
2Pe 3:18……………...forever………….Eternity ………………..singular
Heb 13:8……………..forever………….Eternity� ��……………...singular
Jud 1:13………………forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Jud 1:25………………..ever……………Eternit y…………………singular
Luk 1:33………………forever………….Eternity ………………...singular
Luk 1:55………………forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Mar 11:14……………..forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Mat 21:19……………..forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Mat 6:13………………forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Rev 1:18……………...evermore………..Eternity� ��………………singular
Rom 1:25………………forever…………Eternity� ��………………singular
Rom 11:36……………..forever…………Eternity� ��………………singular
Rom 16:27……………..forever…………Eternity� ��………………singular
Rom 9:5………………..forever…………Eternity …………………singular

Now, it is, most likely, that what some are seeing here is pretty “STURDY” in their minds. It is “UN-wavering”. Reading these verses and “SEEING” this word “forever” (or the like), undoubtedly plants a thought that you, in turn, BELIEVE in. That thought being the concept of “eternity”.

Now, Mike, can you tell me WHICH of these are rendered in the PLURAL FORM IN THE GREEK MANUSCRIPTS????

You see people, Mike does NOT CARE what the Oldest manuscripts say. He only cares about what HIS English bible says. Every word in the illustration is in the English SINGULAR form, but in the Greek manuscripts, there are 10 of these that are in the PLURAL form. To ones such as Mike, I could say, there is 3, or 6, or 2 in the Plural Form. Fact is, HE DOESNT CARE. In his mind, the English translation of the bible that he uses, has MORE AUTHORITY than those closer to the ORIGINALS.

And keep in mind reader, that there is not one instance of the phrase "forever and ever" above. So that EMPHATIC excuse that Mike presents, holds absolutely NO WIEGHT at all here. Dear reader, what he is trying to get you to believe is that the SINGULAR Form of aion in Mat 21:19 means "eternity", but notice what he tells us here, and I will highlight it...

Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. The most emphatic way in the Greek of expressing the concept of eternity. The Greek phrase is properly brought over into the Engish with the idiomatic expression forever and ever. This does not imply adding one eternity to another eternity as some would maintain. IT SIMPLY EMPHASIZES THE CONCEPT OF THE ETERNAL DURATION of Christs reign.

Well, pray-tell, if the single occurrence of the Greek word in it SINGULAR form ALREADY means ETERNITY, the WHY....oh why...do we need a WHOLE PHRASE of 'forever and ever' to mean the SAME THING. Why not just use the same word that is in Mat 21:19????

Dear reader, go look at the Challenge and see what he is doing.


//www.city-data.com/forum/chris...-eternity.html


This is soooo.....soooo telling when it comes to your stance on this Mike.

Furthermore, Plato as well as others used aionios to describe eternity. You can find a link in post #3.

Incorrect again sir. Read here Mike...

John Wesley Hanson : Aion Aioinios - The Greek Word Translated Everlasting (1875) Free Online Books @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology

[joeallcomm]

Originally Posted by Mike555

''but you know that.''

You accuse me of lying. I have just showed you two passages which show that both God the Father and Jesus Christ reign together.

The scriptures state more than once that the reign of Christ has no end. No honest person can deny that.

I'll not waste time debating this with you. I have listed the passages for all to see. A comparison of those passages show that Christ reigns forever. Continue to deny it if you will. What you believe is your affair.

I would not say that we are accusing you of lying, but rather ignorant (not meaning stupid, just UN-knowing of the facts, thats all).

Mike, can you give the Challenge to your Pastor/Preacher? Or maybe I could?? And are telling those of your congregation that there are PLURALS of this word in scripture?? Are you at the very least telling them this.

Sir Mike....If this is NOT a threat to your family, friends, and congregation, then will you at least present the challenge to them??

What I am trying to say here Mike, is that it is obvious that you KNOW that there are the PLURAL forms of the Greek word 'aion' in the Scriptures, but I am willing to bet that A LOT of your congregation do not know this. I you dont believe me, then ask them.

You are simply believing what you are reading Mike, which is wholey understandable, but you are are, in a fact, reading the SINGULAR word 'forever' where there is FACTUALLY a PLURAL Greek noun.

If you want to still say "It is Irrelevant" than, hey, that is your affair.

[joeallcomm]

Nite..nite..all.

Blessings
Joe

[herefornow]

Originally Posted by joeallcomm

Nite..nite..all.

Blessings
Joe

Good night, Joe.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by joeallcomm

No Sir Mike. You are leading people in MISUNDERSTANDINGS. Both the Biblos online Interlinear Bible and the Scripture4all online Bible do NOT have it in the PLURAL/PLURAL form. Please show us otherwise. Not only this, but the "Scripture4all" site translates the phrase "the eon of-the eon" (Singular-Singular). Go figure...eh. Matter of fact Mike, I dont think I have ever came across ANY Greek manuscripts that render this verse (Heb 1:8) in the PLURAL/PLURAL form.

First of all, I don't pretend to be an expert in the Greek.

In Hebrews 1:8 it is indeed rendered as singular singular.
Hebrews 1:8 Biblos Interlinear Bible

I guess I was thinking of Revelation 20:10 where it is plural plural. I had been looking at that just before posting.

As I show later, there are many such passages.

But with all this we get a resounding "IT IS IRRELEVANT" from you. This Sir Mike, is very telling. It is as I said, "you can care less about what the Greek says".

It is indeed irrelevant whether it is singular singular or plural plural, because the verse describes the fact that Jesus Christ reigns forever. As a comparison of the passages I provided show.

No again Sir Mike....there are NOT singular and plural forms of the word 'aionios'. This word 'aionios' is the Transliteration form of the ADJECTIVE of 'aion'. There is no PLURAL forms of any ADJECTIVE that I know of.

What I was atempting to say more correctly is that among some of the variations of aion:

Aionios is singular
Aionion is singular
Aionos is singular
Aiona is singular
Aionas is plural
Aionon is plural

I think I have all these right.

You saying "WHETHER it is ages of the ages OR age of the age", is so telling here Mike. It just proves, again, that you can care less what the Greek Manuscripts say.

I'll say it again more clearly. The fact that there are singular and plural forms has no bearing on the fact that variations of aion such as aiona and aionos, both of which are singular are used to describe the eternal reign of Jesus Christ.

Incorrect again Mike. In you OP you lead people to misunderstandings again. Why do you do this? Here is what you state in your OP...

No it is absolutely not incorrect. The reign of Jesus Christ is forever. There will be no end to His reign. Jesus Christ co-reigns with the Father as Revelation 22:1 and 22:3 shows.

First, I want readers to notice here (you too Mike, for you, yourself, may not even know you are doing this), that Mike tells us the correct PLURAL transliteration of the word aion here as "aionas". Notice though that Mike's translation here has a SINGULAR ENGLISH NOUN 'forever' here, NOT a PLURAL noun. The correct rendering of this word is "ageS" or "eonS". If Mike wants to KEEP the ENGLISH word 'forever', which is in its singular form, then to follow with PROPER translation, by using a English PLURAL noun to translate a Greek PLURAL noun, he MUST transtate it 'foreverS' (with an 'S').

As I plainly said, the Greek ages of the ages is correctly brought over into the English with the idiomatic 'forever and ever'. It does not imply adding one eternity to another eternity. It simply stresses the concept of eternity in the English.

Do you truly think that all the translators are so ignorant that they can't correctly translate it. And that they all get it wrong in just the same way?

Second, and more revealing in this verse, is that the words 'NO END' is explicately said of the KINGDOM, NOT of Jesus' Reign as Mike says. So what happens to this 'Kingdom' then? We are not left to guess, for Mike posts us a scripture that tells us what happens to it.

You need to do an honest comparison of the relevent passages.

Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne, O God is forever and ever.''

Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end.'' HE WILL REIGN FOREVER AND HIS KINGDOM WILL HAVE NO END.

In Isaiah 9:6-7 both the Lord's birth and His eternal reign are prohesied by Isaiah. ''For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Couselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7] There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore (olam). The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this (LORD of the armies - a title which belongs to Jesus Christ).

Now, it cant get no clearer then that Mike. If you can find a passage that says that Jesus' REIGN has 'no end', then you would have an arguement.

I just showed it above. Luke 1:33 ''And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end. Jesus' reign is over HIS kingdom which has no end. If Jesus' reign came to an end then it would no longer be His kingdom.

It is completely clear to anyone without an agenda that Jesus Christ will reign forever.

The reader must understand that the OP does not CARE about what is written in the Greek manuscripts. I will show you what I mean. Let’s look at the following illustration (all examples shown are from the KJV)

That of course is your attempt to discredit me.

VERSE……………EYES SEE……….BELIEVE……………ENG. FORM

1Jn 2:17……………..forever…………..Eternity ………………..singular
1Pe 1:23……………..forever ………….Eternity………………..singular
1Pe 1:25……………..forever ………….Eternity………………..singular
2Co 11:31……………evermore……….Eternity…� ��…………...singular
2Co 9:9……………....forever………….Eternity ………………..singular
2Jn 1:2……………….forever………….Eternity ………………..singular
2Pe 2:17……………...forever………….Eternity ………………..singular
2Pe 3:18……………...forever………….Eternity ………………..singular
Heb 13:8……………..forever………….Eternity� ��……………...singular
Jud 1:13………………forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Jud 1:25………………..ever……………Eternit y…………………singular
Luk 1:33………………forever………….Eternity ………………...singular
Luk 1:55………………forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Mar 11:14……………..forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Mat 21:19……………..forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Mat 6:13………………forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Rev 1:18……………...evermore………..Eternity� ��………………singular
Rom 1:25………………forever…………Eternity� ��………………singular
Rom 11:36……………..forever…………Eternity� ��………………singular
Rom 16:27……………..forever…………Eternity� ��………………singular
Rom 9:5………………..forever…………Eternity …………………singular

Now, it is, most likely, that what some are seeing here is pretty “STURDY” in their minds. It is “UN-wavering”. Reading these verses and “SEEING” this word “forever” (or the like), undoubtedly plants a thought that you, in turn, BELIEVE in. That thought being the concept of “eternity”.

Now, Mike, can you tell me WHICH of these are rendered in the PLURAL FORM IN THE GREEK MANUSCRIPTS????

You see people, Mike does NOT CARE what the Oldest manuscripts say. He only cares about what HIS English bible says. Every word in the illustration is in the English SINGULAR form, but in the Greek manuscripts, there are 10 of these that are in the PLURAL form. To ones such as Mike, I could say, there is 3, or 6, or 2 in the Plural Form. Fact is, HE DOESNT CARE. In his mind, the English translation of the bible that he uses, has MORE AUTHORITY than those closer to the ORIGINALS.

And keep in mind reader, that there is not one instance of the phrase "forever and ever" above. So that EMPHATIC excuse that Mike presents, holds absolutely NO WIEGHT at all here. Dear reader, what he is trying to get you to believe is that the SINGULAR Form of aion in Mat 21:19 means "eternity", but notice what he tells us here, and I will highlight it...

As I have said, aionios has the meaning of an indefinite period because eternal, as well as an indefinite period but not eternal. I never mentioned Matt 21:19.

Excerpt from Apologetics Press - The Eternality of Hell [Part I]
Of aionios (the Greek word used twice in Matthew 25:46 to describe both “punishment” and “life”), W.E. Vine wrote: “describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26 and the other sixty-six places in the N.T.” (1940, 2:43).
------------------------------------
In all the following passages,1 Tim 1:17, 2 Tim 4:18, Rev 1:18, Rev 5:13, Heb 13:21, Rev 4:9-10, Gal 1:5, 1 Pet 4:11, Rev 5:13, Phil 4:20, Rev 1:6, Rev 7:12, Rev 10:6, Rev 11:15, Rev 1:6, Rev 7:12, Rev 10:6; Rev 11:15; Rev 15:7, Rev 22:5, plural plural is used - aionas ton aionon. This is ages to the ages and is indeed the emphatic use to express eternity. No less an authority then R. C. H. Lenski states this to be the case. As does Hermann Sasse. Alan Gomes; Associate professor and Chair of the Dept of Theology at Talbot School of Theoolgy agrees with this. So it is not as though I made it up.

Anyone reading this can go into the following links to see this.

CRI Journal - CRJ0085A

Apologetics Press - The Eternality of Hell [Part I]

Well, pray-tell, if the single occurrence of the Greek word in it SINGULAR form ALREADY means ETERNITY, the WHY....oh why...do we need a WHOLE PHRASE of 'forever and ever' to mean the SAME THING. Why not just use the same word that is in Mat 21:19????

Its called emphasis. The writers of Scripture were free to use their own writing style. Sometimes they used aionios by itself. Other times they chose to use a phrase such as eis tous aionas ton aionon.

Dear reader, go look at the Challenge and see what he is doing.


//www.city-data.com/forum/chris...-eternity.html


This is soooo.....soooo telling when it comes to your stance on this Mike.




Incorrect again sir. Read here Mike...

John Wesley Hanson : Aion Aioinios - The Greek Word Translated Everlasting (1875) Free Online Books @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology

No. Not incorrect. Plato used the word aionios for eternity. His writing can be seen at this link. On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

Now, you've made several attempts to misrepresent me on this post. I understand that this is a common tactic. Many people attempt to give their viewpoint more authority by trying to tear down and misrepresent their opponent. This does nothing but reveal a very questionable character. This is the mark of a pretender. A little minnow trying to appear big by trying to make someone look small. It is an attempt to show an aire of authority which you do not possess.

Readers will see by going into the links provided, that real Greek experts who do not have an agenda to promote universalism have made it clear that aionios is properly used for eternity as well as for periods of limited duration.

You of course will not believe this.

Now. The reign of Jesus Christ is eternal. It has no end. Your denials can not change that. Nor can your pompous attitude.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by joeallcomm

I would not say that we are accusing you of lying, but rather ignorant (not meaning stupid, just UN-knowing of the facts, thats all).

Mike, can you give the Challenge to your Pastor/Preacher? Or maybe I could?? And are telling those of your congregation that there are PLURALS of this word in scripture?? Are you at the very least telling them this.

Sir Mike....If this is NOT a threat to your family, friends, and congregation, then will you at least present the challenge to them??

What I am trying to say here Mike, is that it is obvious that you KNOW that there are the PLURAL forms of the Greek word 'aion' in the Scriptures, but I am willing to bet that A LOT of your congregation do not know this. I you dont believe me, then ask them.

You are simply believing what you are reading Mike, which is wholey understandable, but you are are, in a fact, reading the SINGULAR word 'forever' where there is FACTUALLY a PLURAL Greek noun.

If you want to still say "It is Irrelevant" than, hey, that is your affair.

And as I already told you on the previous post, the English 'forever and ever' is simply an idiomatic expression which stresses the concept of eternity. It does not imply the adding of one eternity to another eternity. The translators understand this.

It is you who don't know what you are talking about. The ignorance is yours. Aionios can be used either as an indefinite period because endless, or as an endless period but not endless. It depends on the context. And there are any number of Greek experts who could tell you that.

Now as for my original pastor, R.B. Thieme Jr., now with the Lord, he majored in Greek at the University of Arizona. He later attended Dallas Theological Seminary, where he was graduated Suma *** Laude. There he acquired the Biblical science of textual criticism and further study of the original languages, making a total of nine years of Greek and five of Hebrew. He was pastor of Berachah Church in Houston Texas for over 50 years. And he did not have an agenda of promoting universalism. He understood the meaning of aionios. As for your challenge, he would have told you to go to .... well, I won't go into that. Oh. And you can Google his name and find out something about him. He was one of the leading expositors of the twentieth century. Not that you're interested I'm sure.

So as you might imagine, I'm not in the least bit impressed by what you think you know.

[Eusebius]

Mike, Christ can't reign "for ever and ever" but He does reign for the ages of the ages which are the next two ages to come. When all mankind are subjected to Christ and Christ quits reigning (1 Corinthians 15:25) and God is All in all, there is no longer need for Christ to reign.

Reigning lasts as long as there is insubjection in God's universe. When reigning by Christ is ceased this is a fantastic sign that all insubjection in God's universe is over.

If you want Christ to reign eternally then you obviously want there to be an eternal insubjection. You never want Christ to succeed in subjecting the universe. You want Christ and God to eternally not succeed in their goal.