Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
svenM.....Perpetual, unending, unto and through the ages, all means non stop.
The Greeks had their way of saying it in various ways, so did the Jews, so did the Babylonians, so did the Assyrians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Akkadians, etc etc.
That isn't true. Aionios does NOT mean temporary and no one would have dared to apply something temporal to God's Core attributes. The AIONIOS God is not a limited duration God. Aionios is not giving us an endpoint. It is only referencing a point of continuation.
Sorry, trettep. I didn't mean to imply that God was temporary, only that he should be described in the Bible as aidios, eternal, immortal, etc. Aionios is used in the Bible to mean things that are temporary, mostly, except when the translators tried to stick their own doctrinal positions into it, and that's how we ended up with an inconsistent, contradictory, and nonsensical (at times) Bible.
Such confusion. I can't see any reason for this except to keep the doctrine of eternal torment in place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
You have been studying!
Yes, yes I have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM
haven't been in the forum for a while
concerning your first claim, this position suppports UR more than it refutes it, see also here:
Hi, sven. Nice to see you around. I still study your old posts and I appreciate your debating style. I have much to learn from all your research. Thanks.
svenM.....Perpetual, unending, unto and through the ages, all means non stop.
do you want me to show the evers that came to an end in the bible?, the everlasting times that had an end?
through the ages needn't be endless if the ages end altogether, but we had this discussion more than once, in the debate on universalism the focus shouldn't be on this terms because they are at least ambiguous.
Universalism cannot prove that aionios / aion never means endlessness in any case, ET cannot prove that aionios / aion means endlessness in any case without exception, so the score is even in this aspect.
Allow me several questions:
do you agree that one meaning of aion is "generation"?
do you agree that a Latin synonym of aion is "saeculum"?
do you agree that one meaning of saeculum is "generation"?
do you agree that "ages of ages" is basically the same idiom as "generations of generations", at least grammatically and that it is a Hebrew idiom and not a Greek one?
do you agree that similar idioms like "king of kings" put the emphasis on quality and not on quantity?
do you agree that "generations of generations" means a finite period of time at least in this context?:
Quote:
Noah, trustworthy righteous man who has been preserved, go forth boldly with your sons and wife and three daughters-in-law and fill the whole earth increasing and multiplying, dealing justly with each other, to generations of generations, until the whole race of men comes to trial, when there will be judgment for all.
svenM.....Perpetual, unending, unto and through the ages, all means non stop.
The Greeks had their way of saying it in various ways, so did the Jews, so did the Babylonians, so did the Assyrians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Akkadians, etc etc.
Today, we call it....eternally, forever and ever.
Perpetual also carries the meaning of continuous within a period of time.
I guess I was thinking of Revelation 20:10 where it is plural plural. I had been looking at that just before posting.
As I show later, there are many such passages.
It is indeed irrelevant whether it is singular singular or plural plural, because the verse describes the fact that Jesus Christ reigns forever. As a comparison of the passages I provided show.
What I was atempting to say more correctly is that among some of the variations of aion:
Aionios is singular
Aionion is singular
Aionos is singular
Aiona is singular
Aionas is plural
Aionon is plural
I think I have all these right.
I'll say it again more clearly. The fact that there are singular and plural forms has no bearing on the fact that variations of aion such as aiona and aionos, both of which are singular are used to describe the eternal reign of Jesus Christ.
No it is absolutely not incorrect. The reign of Jesus Christ is forever. There will be no end to His reign. Jesus Christ co-reigns with the Father as Revelation 22:1 and 22:3 shows.
As I plainly said, the Greek ages of the ages is correctly brought over into the English with the idiomatic 'forever and ever'. It does not imply adding one eternity to another eternity. It simply stresses the concept of eternity in the English.
Do you truly think that all the translators are so ignorant that they can't correctly translate it. And that they all get it wrong in just the same way?
You need to do an honest comparison of the relevent passages.
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne, O God is forever and ever.''
Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end.'' HE WILL REIGN FOREVER AND HIS KINGDOM WILL HAVE NO END.
In Isaiah 9:6-7 both the Lord's birth and His eternal reign are prohesied by Isaiah. ''For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Couselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7] There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore (olam). The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this (LORD of the armies - a title which belongs to Jesus Christ).
I just showed it above. Luke 1:33 ''And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end. Jesus' reign is over HIS kingdom which has no end. If Jesus' reign came to an end then it would no longer be His kingdom.
It is completely clear to anyone without an agenda that Jesus Christ will reign forever.
That of course is your attempt to discredit me.
As I have said, aionios has the meaning of an indefinite period because eternal, as well as an indefinite period but not eternal. I never mentioned Matt 21:19.
Excerpt from Apologetics Press - The Eternality of Hell [Part I]
Of aionios (the Greek word used twice in Matthew 25:46 to describe both “punishment” and “life”), W.E. Vine wrote: “describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26 and the other sixty-six places in the N.T.” (1940, 2:43).
------------------------------------ In all the following passages,1 Tim 1:17, 2 Tim 4:18, Rev 1:18, Rev 5:13, Heb 13:21, Rev 4:9-10, Gal 1:5, 1 Pet 4:11, Rev 5:13, Phil 4:20, Rev 1:6, Rev 7:12, Rev 10:6, Rev 11:15, Rev 1:6, Rev 7:12, Rev 10:6; Rev 11:15; Rev 15:7, Rev 22:5, plural plural is used - aionas ton aionon. This is ages to the ages and is indeed the emphatic use to express eternity. No less an authority then R. C. H. Lenski states this to be the case. As does Hermann Sasse. Alan Gomes; Associate professor and Chair of the Dept of Theology at Talbot School of Theoolgy agrees with this. So it is not as though I made it up.
Anyone reading this can go into the following links to see this.
Its called emphasis. The writers of Scripture were free to use their own writing style. Sometimes they used aionios by itself. Other times they chose to use a phrase such as eis tous aionas ton aionon.
Now, you've made several attempts to misrepresent me on this post. I understand that this is a common tactic. Many people attempt to give their viewpoint more authority by trying to tear down and misrepresent their opponent. This does nothing but reveal a very questionable character. This is the mark of a pretender. A little minnow trying to appear big by trying to make someone look small. It is an attempt to show an aire of authority which you do not possess.
Readers will see by going into the links provided, that real Greek experts who do not have an agenda to promote universalism have made it clear that aionios is properly used for eternity as well as for periods of limited duration.
You of course will not believe this.
Now. The reign of Jesus Christ is eternal. It has no end. Your denials can not change that. Nor can your pompous attitude.
After presenting this to you....
Quote:
The reader must understand that the OP does not CARE about what is written in the Greek manuscripts. I will show you what I mean. Let’s look at the following illustration (all examples shown are from the KJV)
VERSE……………EYES SEE……….BELIEVE……………ENG. FORM
1Jn 2:17……………..forever…………..Eternity ………………..singular
1Pe 1:23……………..forever ………….Eternity………………..singular
1Pe 1:25……………..forever ………….Eternity………………..singular
2Co 11:31……………evermore……….Eternity… …………...singular
2Co 9:9……………....forever………….Eternity ………………..singular
2Jn 1:2……………….forever………….Eternity ………………..singular
2Pe 2:17……………...forever………….Eternity ………………..singular
2Pe 3:18……………...forever………….Eternity ………………..singular
Heb 13:8……………..forever………….Eternity ……………...singular
Jud 1:13………………forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Jud 1:25………………..ever……………Eternit y…………………singular
Luk 1:33………………forever………….Eternity ………………...singular
Luk 1:55………………forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Mar 11:14……………..forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Mat 21:19……………..forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Mat 6:13………………forever………….Eternity …………………singular
Rev 1:18……………...evermore………..Eternity ………………singular
Rom 1:25………………forever…………Eternity ………………singular
Rom 11:36……………..forever…………Eternity ………………singular
Rom 16:27……………..forever…………Eternity ………………singular
Rom 9:5………………..forever…………Eternity …………………singular
You say this...
Quote:
That of course is your attempt to discredit me.
But you repeatedly say things such as....
Quote:
It is indeed irrelevant whether it [the GREEK SHOWS] is singular singular or plural plural...(emph. Joe's)
Quote:
I'll say it again more clearly. The fact that there are singular and plural forms [in the GREEK] has NO bearing...(emph. Joe's)
So, NO Mike, I AM NOT discrediting you. You are discrediting YOURSELF here. You also state...
Quote:
Now, you've made several attempts to misrepresent me on this post. I understand that this is a common tactic. Many people attempt to give their viewpoint more authority by trying to tear down and misrepresent their opponent. This does nothing but reveal a very questionable character.
Im sorry Mike, but as you well know, TRUTH is not measured on whether you like me or not. If you state that "Christ is the Savour", then your going around cussing, sinning, and being rude, has absolutely no bearing on the TRUTH that Christ is INDEED the Saviour.
Quote:
This is the mark of a pretender. A little minnow trying to appear big by trying to make someone look small.
You have made yourself the little minnow here Mike, not I.
Quote:
It is an attempt to show an aire of authority which you do not possess.
The attempt was to show that the GREEK has, and SHOULD have, MORE AUTHORITY then YOUR Tranlsation that you read. But you have made it abundantly clear that you can CARE LESS what the Greek says. You have an "agenda" to KEEP eternity (like your scholars), and you will keep it at ANY cost, even if we have to BURN all the Greek to do it. You stated...
Quote:
Do you truly think that all the translators are so ignorant that they can't correctly translate it. And that they all get it wrong in just the same way?
Why yes Mike, about this word, it is BLATANTLY obvious. It's like me asking you "Do you think the UR translators were ignorant of the PLURALS in the Greek???" Who is being IGNORANT of the PLURALS here Mike?? Is it YOU (and your Scholars), or is it US (and our scholars)??. The answer stands right out there sir. Im sorry Mike, but you are stuck in your thinking. In the Challenge set forth, this is where you stand.
Quote:
Now let us teach our child a tiny bit of Greek sentence structure, so he/she can learn that they are ACCTUALLY and FACTUALLY (that is “factually”) reading “singular and PLURAL” nouns here.
Firstly, the child has been taught that the Greek word “aion” means “eternity” (in certain places that is), because it says “forever” right there in Mathew 21:19, right?
And we also give them a Greek word “lookup guide” to prove it.
And we have also taught the child that, yes, just like our ENGLISH language, the Greeks had “singular and plural” nouns as well.
Once again, NOW here is what the child is Reading, Thinking, and Deeply thinking (hmm..),….
………………….Child reading………….Child is Thinking……...Hmm..(think hard now)
Mat 21:19…..“forever”……………………. ETERNITY”………………….“etern ity…Got it!”
Luke 1:33………“forever(s)”……………….“ete rnities..?” ……………..“Hmm..ask Preacher”
Heb 1:8……….“forever & ever”………..“Emph. Etrns”……………..“More eternity..maybe?”
Gal 1:5…….“forever(s)&ever(s)”…….“Emph x2 ASK??”…………“He didn’t know..hmm?”
Dan 7:18…..“forever and ever”………“Eterni..??.grr”………… “singular & plur…Com On!”
Eph 3:21……“world without end”…….“Flipping coins”…………..“whatever..talk to the hand”
The BIBLE….“forever” and “ever”…..“Preacher says”………….“Nope!…Preacher says!!!”
This isn’t funny either, but yes, the logical outcome is “Preacher says it”….”this commentary says it”….”this man says”…”mom and dad says”….”this SCHOLAR says it”.
But hey, this kid is still in the pews right. Yep…he/she is sitting there and is UNABLE to think for himself, because he/she thinks if all these people “say” it, it MUST be true, right?(aah..shut up…there ya go thinkin’ again, it just IS). This kid is either gonna STAY or LEAVE, because his/her questions cannot be answered.
Yep.....“Preacher says it”….”this commentary says it”….”this man says”…”mom and dad says”….”this SCHOLAR says it”.
And you are upset at US for just merely telling you what the "Greek says". But it is obvious that you dont care what the "GREEK SAYS". And that sir is telling and sad.
So, NO Mike, I AM NOT discrediting you. You are discrediting YOURSELF here. You also state...
Im sorry Mike, but as you well know, TRUTH is not measured on whether you like me or not. If you state that "Christ is the Savour", then your going around cussing, sinning, and being rude, has absolutely no bearing on the TRUTH that Christ is INDEED the Saviour.
You have made yourself the little minnow here Mike, not I.
The attempt was to show that the GREEK has, and SHOULD have, MORE AUTHORITY then YOUR Tranlsation that you read. But you have made it abundantly clear that you can CARE LESS what the Greek says. You have an "agenda" to KEEP eternity (like your scholars), and you will keep it at ANY cost, even if we have to BURN all the Greek to do it. You stated...
Why yes Mike, about this word, it is BLATANTLY obvious. It's like me asking you "Do you think the UR translators were ignorant of the PLURALS in the Greek???" Who is being IGNORANT of the PLURALS here Mike?? Is it YOU (and your Scholars), or is it US (and our scholars)??. The answer stands right out there sir. Im sorry Mike, but you are stuck in your thinking. In the Challenge set forth, this is where you stand.
Yep.....“Preacher says it”….”this commentary says it”….”this man says”…”mom and dad says”….”this SCHOLAR says it”.
And you are upset at US for just merely telling you what the "Greek says". But it is obvious that you dont care what the "GREEK SAYS". And that sir is telling and sad.
It has already been established that aionios has the meaning of an undefined period because unending, as well as an undefined period but not unending. Which is meant is determined by context. It has also been established that Jesus Christ will reign eternally.
As I have already told you, my original pastor had a total of nine years of Greek and five of Hebrew. He knew what the Greeks says, and what it meant.
And unlike you, he had no agenda to promote a false teaching. Now if you want to pass yourself off as an expert in the Greek, suit yourself. I am not impressed. Good day to you.
It has already been established that aionios has the meaning of an undefined period because unending, as well as an undefined period but not unending. Which is meant is determined by context. It has also been established that Jesus Christ will reign eternally.
As I have already told you, my original pastor had a total of nine years of Greek and five of Hebrew. He knew what the Greeks says, and what it meant.
And unlike you, he had no agenda to promote a false teaching. Now if you want to pass yourself off as an expert in the Greek, suit yourself. I am not impressed. Good day to you.
Mike....we get it....You and your Pastor think like this....
The Greek Singular (Mat 21:19) means ETERNITY
No..no..no..."OR is it" the Greek PLURAL (Luke 1:33) means ETERNITY
No..no..no..."OR is it" the Greek PHRASE "Singular/Singular" (Heb 1:8) means ETERNITY
No..no..no..."OR is it" the Greek PHRASE "Singular/PLURAL" (Dan 7:18) means ETERNITY
No..no..no..."OR is it" the Greek PHRASE "PLURAL/PLURAL" (Gal 1:5) means ETNERNITY
DEAR READER....read this over and OVER again, and tell us, INDEED, WHO has an AGENDA here??????? Who is BLATANTLY teaching something FALSE here??
Your pastor is only parroting what his teachers told him. Take the Challenge to him Mike, and see what he says...., I already know what he is gonna say, but have him give it to ALL of your congregation. If you and your Pastor are correct, then it SHOULDN'T HURT, right??
Or are you gonna keep BURNING the Greek to keep that one English SINGULAR word "eternity". For, it is obvous that the Greek is "IRRELEVANT"...and "HAS NO BEARING" on your thoughts.
Mike, the only reason why you think Jesus will reign "forever" is because your eyes are SEEING and UNDERSTANDING an English Singular Noun, when (according to the AUTHORITY of the Greek) you SHOULD be SEEING a PLURAL noun.
Just add that little "s" to the end of word (LIKE IT SHOULD BE). Or...hey...com on....is the reason why you wont....is because maybe it WONT make any sense anymore. Ya....I think so...
But the FACT remains Mike, it IS a PLURAL. The passage should have a PLURAL noun in it. Like...."ages"....or...if you wish "forever(S)".
Context defines everything, in any language. Such is the case here. Happy New Year.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
