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Old 12-26-2010, 12:40 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
25,059 posts, read 18,658,178 times
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The purpose of this post is to show two things.

1) The reign of Jesus Christ is not temporary as some claim, but is forever and ever through the eternal future.

2) The Greek word Aionios and its variations - aionas, aiona, aionos, etc... are properly used with reference to things which are eternal in nature. Aionios has the meaning of an indefinite period. Either indefinite because eternal, or indefinite but not eternal. It depends upon the context.

Because of 1 Corinthians 15:24 which says, ''Then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25] For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.'', there are those who think that Jesus Christ will not rule forever.

The Bible is clear that He will rule forever along with God the Father. Compare the following passages.

Luke 1:33 'And He (Jesus) will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that. Jesus' reign will have no end and is therefore eternal - aionas.

In Isaiah 9:6-7 both the Lord's birth and His eternal reign are prohesied by Isaiah. ''For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Couselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7] There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore (olam). The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this (LORD of the armies - a title which belongs to Jesus Christ).

Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. The most emphatic way in the Greek of expressing the concept of eternity. The Greek phrase is properly brought over into the Engish with the idiomatic expression forever and ever. This does not imply adding one eternity to another eternity as some would maintain. It simply emphasizes the concept of the eternal duration of Christs reign.

It is seen in the next two verses that both God the Father and God the Son - Jesus Christ, rule together forever.

The eternal throne is that of God and of the Lamb. Revelation 22:1 'And He showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God (the Father) and of the Lamb (Jesus Christ).

Revelation 22:3 'And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servents shall serve Him:


As the Scriptures plainly state, Jesus Christ will rule forever along with God the Father. When the Millennium ends, Jesus Christ will deliver up the kingdom to God the Father and it will be the triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who rules.

Now, for those who have insisted that Jesus only rules until the end of the Millennium, if you will be honest with yourself, you will see that Jesus rules for all eternity future and you will also see that the Greek word Aionios with its variations properly denotes those things which are of an eternal nature.
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Old 12-26-2010, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,081,506 times
Reputation: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The purpose of this post is to show two things.

1) The reign of Jesus Christ is not temporary as some claim, but is forever and ever through the eternal future.

2) The Greek word Aionios and its variations - aionas, aiona, aionos, etc... are properly used with reference to things which are eternal in nature. Aionios has the meaning of an indefinite period. Either indefinite because eternal, or indefinite but not eternal. It depends upon the context.

Because of 1 Corinthians 15:24 which says, ''Then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25] For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.'', there are those who think that Jesus Christ will not rule forever.

The Bible is clear that He will rule forever along with God the Father. Compare the following passages.

Luke 1:33 'And He (Jesus) will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that. Jesus' reign will have no end and is therefore eternal - aionas.

In Isaiah 9:6-7 both the Lord's birth and His eternal reign are prohesied by Isaiah. ''For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Couselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7] There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore (olam). The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this (LORD of the armies - a title which belongs to Jesus Christ).

Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. The most emphatic way in the Greek of expressing the concept of eternity. The Greek phrase is properly brought over into the Engish with the idiomatic expression forever and ever. This does not imply adding one eternity to another eternity as some would maintain. It simply emphasizes the concept of the eternal duration of Christs reign.

It is seen in the next two verses that both God the Father and God the Son - Jesus Christ, rule together forever.

The eternal throne is that of God and of the Lamb. Revelation 22:1 'And He showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God (the Father) and of the Lamb (Jesus Christ).

Revelation 22:3 'And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servents shall serve Him:


As the Scriptures plainly state, Jesus Christ will rule forever along with God the Father. When the Millennium ends, Jesus Christ will deliver up the kingdom to God the Father and it will be the triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who rules.

Now, for those who have insisted that Jesus only rules until the end of the Millennium, if you will be honest with yourself, you will see that Jesus rules for all eternity future and you will also see that the Greek word Aionios with its variations properly denotes those things which are of an eternal nature.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret aionios,

There is aionios. Can aionios really be eternal? If so, then the secret will never be known.
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Old 12-26-2010, 01:35 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
25,059 posts, read 18,658,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret aionios,

There is aionios. Can aionios really be eternal? If so, then the secret will never be known.
Do you understand the concept that the meaning of a word is determined by its useage? I just showed that Jesus' reign is eternal and that aionos and other variations of the word denote that eternal reign. And you still refuse to acknowledge it. I just said that aionios means both an indefinite period either because eternal or an indefinite period but not eternal.


Here. Maybe you will take Plato's word for it. Never mind his philosophy. The issue is that to Plato, aionion and aidios were synonymous terms. Plato used aionios to refer to eternity. Do you not think that Plato knew the proper meaning of the word?

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

Are you going to refuse to acknowledge even to yourself that Jesus will reign forever in order to avoid having to admit that aionios is properly used for things of an eternal nature as well as for things that are not eternal?
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Old 12-26-2010, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,651,049 times
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In ancient times...their word(s) for forever was simply as it has been stated over and over in the literature of the time(s) and the canon, LXX, 2nd temple's, etc. Good post Mike555....to not see this, and over-contextualize this, and that still continues to this day, is beyond many.

For ages and ages - Forever......and ever...and ever.
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Old 12-26-2010, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Arizona
24,485 posts, read 11,363,005 times
Reputation: 1998
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
In ancient times...their word(s) for forever was simply as it has been stated over and over in the literature of the time(s) and the canon, LXX, 2nd temple's, etc. Good post Mike555....to not see this, and over-contextualize this, and that still continues to this day, is beyond many.

For ages and ages - Forever......and ever...and ever.
You simply echo one another.
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Old 12-26-2010, 02:15 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
25,059 posts, read 18,658,178 times
Reputation: 10865
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
In ancient times...their word(s) for forever was simply as it has been stated over and over in the literature of the time(s) and the canon, LXX, 2nd temple's, etc. Good post Mike555....to not see this, and over-contextualize this, and that still continues to this day, is beyond many.

For ages and ages - Forever......and ever...and ever.
Thanks sciotamicks. I realize that most universalists will simply ignore this or try to find a way to twist it, but I posted it for whoever will benefit by it. By a simple comparison of certain passages it is obvious that aionios, as well as olam, is used in different ways in the Scriptures to portray what the author intends to convey.

And Plato and others who certainly knew their own lanquage had no problem in using aionios to denote eternity.

Hope you had a merry Christmas and will have a happy new year.

Mike
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Old 12-26-2010, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,081,506 times
Reputation: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Do you understand the concept that the meaning of a word is determined by its useage? I just showed that Jesus' reign is eternal and that aionos and other variations of the word denote that eternal reign. And you still refuse to acknowledge it. I just said that aionios means both an indefinite period either because eternal or an indefinite period but not eternal.


Here. Maybe you will take Plato's word for it. Never mind his philosophy. The issue is that to Plato, aionion and aidios were synonymous terms. Plato used aionios to refer to eternity. Do you not think that Plato knew the proper meaning of the word?

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

Are you going to refuse to acknowledge even to yourself that Jesus will reign forever in order to avoid having to admit that aionios is properly used for things of an eternal nature as well as for things that are not eternal?
No question that the Lord will reign forever. But that doesn't have anything to do with the meaning of aionios. I think that the people that spoke Greek when the scriptures were written knew that aionios didn't mean eternity. But again, you have to say that aionios means different things in different verses. I don't have to do that. It means the same thing in ALL the verses.
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Old 12-26-2010, 02:48 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
25,059 posts, read 18,658,178 times
Reputation: 10865
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
No question that the Lord will reign forever. But that doesn't have anything to do with the meaning of aionios. I think that the people that spoke Greek when the scriptures were written knew that aionios didn't mean eternity. But again, you have to say that aionios means different things in different verses. I don't have to do that. It means the same thing in ALL the verses.
You willingly refuse to connect the fact that aionios is the word used in the original language to establish the eternal reign of Christ. But that was expected. And you ignore the fact that Plato as well as other Greek writers of ancient times used aionios to describe eternity. I just provided you with a link to a sample of Plato's writings to establish that fact.

I'll not keep going back and forth with you. You will continue to deny that aionios is used for an indefinite period because eternal, as well as an indefinite period but not eternal. You must in order to cling to universalism. As I said, I posted this for the benefit of those who will be benefited by it. All who are honest will acknowledge that aionios does not confine itself to the meaning of an age.
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Old 12-26-2010, 05:28 PM
 
352 posts, read 501,567 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
No question that the Lord will reign forever. But that doesn't have anything to do with the meaning of aionios. I think that the people that spoke Greek when the scriptures were written knew that aionios didn't mean eternity. But again, you have to say that aionios means different things in different verses. I don't have to do that. It means the same thing in ALL the verses.
How can it not trettep? If aionios is used to describe an eternal God, an eternal Son, and His eternal kingdom, then how does it not have anything to do with eternity? It has to. Universalists can't say that the word "aionios" doesn't mean eternity and maintain that Christ will set up an eternal kingdom when the word "aionios" is used clearly to mean eternity.

Second of all, where's your historical proof that "people that spoke Greek when the scriptures were written knew that aionios didn't mean eternity?" You can't assume that stance without something to back that up.
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Old 12-26-2010, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,647,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
How can it not trettep? If aionios is used to describe an eternal God, an eternal Son, and His eternal kingdom, then how does it not have anything to do with eternity? It has to. Universalists can't say that the word "aionios" doesn't mean eternity and maintain that Christ will set up an eternal kingdom when the word "aionios" is used clearly to mean eternity.

Second of all, where's your historical proof that "people that spoke Greek when the scriptures were written knew that aionios didn't mean eternity?" You can't assume that stance without something to back that up.

I'm out and about over the next few days, and I'm typing on my phone, so I can't deliver a very scholarly answer, but the word which meant "eternal" back in the day (a long time ago-->>Hi, Plato) was "aidios," and it was NEVER associated in the original scriptures with human punishment. Never. Mike, or any pastor worth his salt, should know this.

Aionios always meant temporary. God is the ainios God, or the God of the ages, but he also is immortal. We are not. We have to PUT ON immortality.
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