From Eternal Torment to Universal Redemption---An Inevitable Evolutionary Process? (Messiah, beliefs, creation)
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What makes you so certain that everyone in Adam is everyone in the world that has ever lived from beginning to end? How do you generalize this statement in lieu of the holy scriptures that testify to distinctions between the "sons of Adam" apart from the "sons of mankind?"
Whether or not all are literally of a Primitive first man, what is important is the fact that all people are guilty of sin and predisposed to sin due to the original sin which is spoken of in the scriptures.
If you want to try and say that only those of some covenant you believe in die in Adam and will be made alive in Christ, then you are interpreting the scriptures in a way that they were not originally interpreted by the early church.
The sin of Adam is understood to be responsible for literal physical death according to the scriptures. That is why Jesus had to literally physically die in order to save the world which is even now yet in bondage to sin and death.
Even if what you say is true, and only those who are a part of some covenant are the ones who die in Adam and who will thus be made alive in Christ, then anyone who is not a part of that covenant is not guilty of having broken that covenant.
The law of sin and death and the law of moses which are covenant laws to a covenant people do not apply to those outside the covenant. So they should not be penalized for the guilt of sin under the law, which is death, if they are not a part of the covenant to begin with.
I have stated a few times that the majority of the human race will be eternally lost. You cannot put a specific percentage such as 90% or 80% on it, but yes, the majority of the human race will not receive Christ as Savior and will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is not Dante's idea of hell and what universalists probably imagine it to be. I heard once that Dante wrote about people having their skin flayed off of them and things of that nature. That is not the nature of hell.
But it is a place of torment. The fire may or may not be real. It may just be used to signify judgment. But symbolic language is never used to make something seem worse than it really is. It is used because language cannot adequately express the reality. Luke 16:19:31 suggests that the fire in Hades, which is not the lake of fire, is real. And while the rich man was in agony, it did not seem to be unimaginable torment. The word of God shows that there will be degrees of punishment in the lake of fire.
Much of the torment will undoubtedly be caused by the hopelessness of their situation. The knowledge that they will be eternally separated from God. The constant memories always on their minds that they had the chance to receive Christ as Savior but chose not to. Also, they will be among every other person who rejected Christ and everyone will be continually angry, in despair, perhaps everyone will be in continual conflict with everyone else. Perhaps there will be unrestrained hatred and antagonism.
Have you ever had a severe depression? Perhaps those in the lake of fire will have a far far worse depression that never lets up. Perhaps the fire is real but people are not directly in it, but are simply in a place where fire is all around. I'm just listing things as they come to mind.
The point is that though the lake of fire is real, and those who never received Christ as Savior, and all the fallen angels will spend the eternal future in it, we don't know the exact nature of it or of the form that the torment will take.
Satan will not be the ruler of hell. He will be in the same boat as everyone else. If anything, everyone will take turns beating the crap out of Satan.
Look. Everyone has the opportunity to receive Jesus Christ as Savior while they are alive on this earth. God gives them that opportunity. If they say no to that opportunity, then God has no alternative but to consign them first to hades, and then ultimately, to the lake of fire.
God never promised to save all mankind. He promised, and did sent Jesus Christ into the world to pay the penalty for mans sins. The barrier of sin has been removed. But salvation is not automatic. Salvation is contingent upon a personal decision to place your faith in Christ for salvation. That is the issue in the angelic conflict.
God has not and cannot fail in anything. But His plan never included the salvation of all mankind. Yes, Jesus died for the sins of the world. But each person must use his God given free will to believe in Christ for salvation.
The alternative to eternity in the presence of God is eternal separation from God, in torment in the lake of fire.
But before you die, while you have the opportunity,
Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.'
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.'
Seems to me, I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the parable of the lost sheep has absolutely no application then, if the majority of mankind is going to be lost. What was the point behind Jesus telling us this parable, other than the plain message contained with it that Jesus would go out and search for even one sheep that had strayed away and bring it back to the fold?
I haven't read through the entire thread so maybe someone has already mentioned this, but i just wanted to say that UR is not a later evolution of the Christian faith. It was in fact the original message of the gospel of Christ taught by the apostles and believed on by the vast majority of Christians in the first five centuries of the Christian era.
I understand what you are trying to say Thrill, but we must keep the historical facts straight.
Peace ...
Yes, I acknowledge that a doctrine different from ET was taught by the church leaders prior to Augustine. What that doctrine was I do not know. Many UR's say it was UR. I have no reason to doubt them, as I believe their research was honestly and thoroughly done.
Yes, I acknowledge that a doctrine different from ET was taught by the church leaders prior to Augustine. What that doctrine was I do not know. Many UR's say it was UR. I have no reason to doubt them, as I believe their research was honestly and thoroughly done.
Indeed, and you can always research the research of others in order to discover if their research is accurate or not.
I'm sure you will always find differing perspectives from various would be authorities on the subject, that is why it is important to study church history for yourself from as many different perspectives as you can, and especially research the writings of the early church.
We live in a particular age, when we actually have the information at our fingertips, though it can be daunting to sift through it all.
Seems to me, I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the parable of the lost sheep has absolutely no application then, if the majority of mankind is going to be lost. What was the point behind Jesus telling us this parable, other than the plain message contained with it that Jesus would go out and search for even one sheep that had strayed away and bring it back to the fold?
Being a 'lost sheep' and being anything else is defined in doctrine. Is a sheep lost without being the Lord's?
Eze 34:10-12
'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will demand My sheep from them and make them cease from feeding sheep. So the shepherds will not feed themselves anymore, but I will deliver My flock from their mouth, so that they will not be food for them."'"
For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.
"As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day.
34:31
"As for you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, you are men, and I am your God," declares the Lord GOD.
Actually, read ALL of chapter 34. It explains it quite well. But back to Jesus,,
John 10:26-27
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
So, once again,,,who's sheep is who's? We see sheep that are God's and those who are not. Of course, if one of His is 'lost', Jesus will and SHOULD go to the ends to find them,,,,because they are HIS. It is His responsibility TO His Sheep, as the Shepherd.
Ward Fenley and others have some great articles that lay out much of what I am studying now at this site (http://www.newcreationministries.tv/articles.htm - broken link). There is also the archive of the site you have been to...my name is Ken Palmer (http://deathisdefeated.ning.com/profile/sciotamicks - broken link), and you are most welcome to interact with me any time there, or any one else for that matter, if you have any questions.
However, I will in short lay out what I believe. First and foremost, Christ is God in the flesh, and He came here to earth, to disannul the covenant with death that Adam received for his transgression. By that, we as followers of Christ, can obtain eternal life. Outside of being a follower of Christ, is only mortality, and not, immortality. We die a mortal death. No resurrection, no life after death. Lights out IOW.
There are two broad camps of Preterism. There is IBD (individual Body Death) and CBV (Corporate Body View). I fall into CBV. The resurrection of Israel, is the resurrection of the "body" of Christ, or the church, the saints therein, and through that resurrection that occurred at the close of the Mosaic Age....when I receive Christ now in the 21st Century, I enjoy the blessings and benefits of what consummated then, that which became complete then, the kingdom of God. Yes it continues to increase as per Isa 9:7 and Mark 13, but I become part of the body now, and am incorruptible and eternal now. My mortal body dies, it dissipates in the ground as any other animal, just as the Neanderthal or Primate that can love, feel, be angered, yet have no spirit life. That aionios zoe which is received is granted for my belief in Christ. My "body", is spritual, it is not flesh and bones, or a glorified new bone, it is an eternal clothing of the blood of Christ. When I come to God, He sees the blood on me, and we can have union, and He is all in all with me, and everyone else who believes. Because of the consummation, He is now all in all with His people once again. IBD is simply put, that none of the above is given, until the flesh body dies. This is an error, because the scriptures do not testify to one in Christ being resurrected twice. Only once, upon belief.
We must understand that the Bible is not really concerned with the "unrepentant" sinner "outside" of covenant with God. It is concerned with the "unrepentant sinner "in" covenant with God. Salvation is for God's people, and the only time it is really concerned with those outside of covenant, is by bringing into covenant with God, so that they can receive the benefits of salvation. I am not totally on board with Covenant Creation, as I believe there are kinks in all doctrines and sects, but I am certain that they are the closest and most consistent. Just as we use various historical events to confirm prophetic fulfillment of the scripture, covenant theology in Covenant Creation is applying not only grammatical, but historical and cultural hermeneutics to the interpretation as well, which I believe, is a top priority if we are to fully understand it.
Nice to meet you, Ken. Thanks much for the links. I will add them to my "To read" list. Your answer here is very profound, at least to one not familiar with the concepts. I will study it in greater detail along with the links you give. And when I have questions (as I most certainly will) I will give you a "call".
Indeed, and you can always research the research of others in order to discover if their research is accurate or not.
I'm sure you will always find differing perspectives from various would be authorities on the subject, that is why it is important to study church history for yourself from as many different perspectives as you can, and especially research the writings of the early church.
We live in a particular age, when we actually have the information at our fingertips, though it can be daunting to sift through it all.
Being a 'lost sheep' and being anything else is defined in doctrine. Is a sheep lost without being the Lord's?
Eze 34:10-12
'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will demand My sheep from them and make them cease from feeding sheep. So the shepherds will not feed themselves anymore, but I will deliver My flock from their mouth, so that they will not be food for them."'"
For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.
"As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day.
34:31
"As for you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, you are men, and I am your God," declares the Lord GOD.
Actually, read ALL of chapter 34. It explains it quite well. But back to Jesus,,
John 10:26-27
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
So, once again,,,who's sheep is who's? We see sheep that are God's and those who are not. Of course, if one of His is 'lost', Jesus will and SHOULD go to the ends to find them,,,,because they are HIS. It is His responsibility TO His Sheep, as the Shepherd.
Yes, as soon as I posted this I realized that I'd forgotten the issue of "those who belong to Jesus" as opposed to "all of mankind". I contemplated removing my response, but I thought it would be a splendid opportunity for someone to bring up this point. And it is a good point.
Yes, as soon as I posted this I realized that I'd forgotten the issue of "those who belong to Jesus" as opposed to "all of mankind". I contemplated removing my response, but I thought it would be a splendid opportunity for someone to bring up this point. And it is a good point.
Well, Saul was not of Christs sheep when he was persecuting the Christians, but he became one of Christs sheep after the road to Damascus indecent.
Hotinaz is actually taking the term and its usage literally, but we see in Romans 11 that Israel was blinded in part to the gospel for the sake of the redemption of the world. They were/are enemies of the gospel for our sake, but they were/are believed for the sake of the patriarchs. So just as we were one time disobedient and unbelievers but have now received mercy, so are they now disobedient and unbelievers so that that will receive mercy because of our mercy.
That is what it means that God bound all people over to disobedience/unbelief, so that he can have mercy on all people.
Whether or not all are literally of a Primitive first man, what is important is the fact that all people are guilty of sin and predisposed to sin due to the original sin which is spoken of in the scriptures.
Are they? What about Paul, before he knew the law....what about what he said, about those who did not know the law?
Quote:
If you want to try and say that only those of some covenant you believe in die in Adam and will be made alive in Christ, then you are interpreting the scriptures in a way that they were not originally interpreted by the early church.
Early church? Which one? Also, I am not trying to say anything...I am directly quoting the Hebrew text of the holy scriptures, in that they differentiate between the two....in Adam, and in mankind.
Quote:
The sin of Adam is understood to be responsible for literal physical death according to the scriptures.
What? You are kidding me right? Did he die that very literal day?
The scriptures teach a "spiritual death" for those who know the law, as Adam did.
Quote:
That is why Jesus had to literally physically die in order to save the world which is even now yet in bondage to sin and death.
What is bondage? A physical impedance, or a spiritual one? This goes back to the previous quote above.
Quote:
Even if what you say is true, and only those who are a part of some covenant are the ones who die in Adam and who will thus be made alive in Christ, then anyone who is not a part of that covenant is not guilty of having broken that covenant.
Now you are getting it. Praise the Lord! They don't exist.
Quote:
The law of sin and death and the law of Moses which are covenant laws to a covenant people do not apply to those outside the covenant.
The law of sin and death hearkens back to the garden....unless you want to disregard every sin from Adam to Moses....and I don't think you want to go there.....or do you?
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