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Boo hoo ...That's because it is you who has the problem. Jesus himself qualifies 1 Tim 2:4 that "all" isn't "all inclusive" in:
John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Departfromme, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
Satan's delusion is what you intend for it to mean...therefore you HAVE to ignore other scripture that refute what doesn't fit the propaganda.
Nothing your showing indicates that the "all" in 1 Tim 2:4 exludes anyone. There is no analysis that you present that shows such a case. And if it did then it would negate the "desire" argument that others presented. For why then would God merely desire for the already select group (where all excludes some) to be saved.
Remember 1 Tim 2:4 is the WORD OF GOD. If it says He is going to save all men (which it does) then there cannot be any other scripture that contradicts it. Only your understanding of other scriptures will be suspect.
That would be refreshing .... when are you going to start?
Twin.spin, I'm treating you with respect. I do not use comments like "boo hoo" and say "your pouting" etc... What follows true Christians is the character trait of doing unto others as you would have done unto you. It is a commandment given by Jesus Christ. Disagreeing with you is not a violation of that commandment. If you feel I haven't treated you as you want to be treated then please private message me and we can discuss there.
Nothing your showing indicates that the "all" in 1 Tim 2:4 exludes anyone. There is no analysis that you present that shows such a case. And if it did then it would negate the "desire" argument that others presented. For why then would God merely desire for the already select group (where all excludes some) to be saved.
Remember 1 Tim 2:4 is the WORD OF GOD. If it says He is going to save all men (which it does) then there cannot be any other scripture that contradicts it. Only your understanding of other scriptures will be suspect.
Ditto .. Remember not only is 1 Tim 2:4 is the WORD OF GOD
Twin.spin, I'm treating you with respect. I do not use comments like "boo hoo" and say "your pouting" etc... What follows true Christians is the character trait of doing unto others as you would have done unto you. It is a commandment given by Jesus Christ. Disagreeing with you is not a violation of that commandment. If you feel I haven't treated you as you want to be treated then please private message me and we can discuss there.
I'll will.........but being I'm a transplanted cheeze head, going to have to wait till Rose Bowl game is over and the Packers bear "da bears" tommorow.
Simply compare 1 Tim 2:4 with Mark 9:35. Both passages use Thelei in the Present Active Indicative. You've already listed 1 Tim 2:4, and you claim that because it is in the Indicative, that it means that God 'will' rather than simply 'desires' that all men be saved. This is incorrect. Here is Mark 9:35.
Mark 9:35 'And sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, ''If anyone wants - desires - Thelei - Present Active Indicative) to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all.''
The certainty is of God's desire that all men be saved.
Certainly God desires all men be saved. But He leaves it to man's free will to say 'yes' or 'no' to the gospel.
to will, wish
Original Word: θέλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: theló
Phonetic Spelling: ( eth-el'-o,)
Short Definition: I will, wish, desire
Definition: I will, wish, desire, am willing, intend, design.
Cognate: 2309 thélō (a primitive verb, NAS dictionary) – to desire (wish, will), wanting what is best (optimal) because someone is ready and willing to act.
2309 /thélō ("to desire, wish") is commonly used of the Lord extending His "best-offer" to the believer – wanting (desiring) to birth His persuasion (faith) in them which also empowers, manifests His presence etc. See 2307 (thelēma).
[Note the close connection between faith (4102 /pístis, "God's inbirthed persuasion") and this root (thel-, 2307 /thélēma); cf. 2 Cor 8:5-7 and Heb 10:36-39).]
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
desire, be disposed toward, intend
Thel'-o or thel'-o or in certain tenses theleo thel-eh'-o, and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of haireomai; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas boulomai properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. Choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. Be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in -- desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).
Simply compare 1 Tim 2:4 with Mark 9:35. Both passages use Thelei in the Present Active Indicative. You've already listed 1 Tim 2:4, and you claim that because it is in the Indicative, that it means that God 'will' rather than simply 'desires' that all men be saved. This is incorrect. Here is Mark 9:35.
Mark 9:35 'And sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, ''If anyone wants - desires - Thelei - Present Active Indicative) to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all.''
The certainty is of God's desire that all men be saved.
Certainly God desires all men be saved. But He leaves it to man's free will to say 'yes' or 'no' to the gospel.
to will, wish
Original Word: θέλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: theló
Phonetic Spelling: ( eth-el'-o,)
Short Definition: I will, wish, desire
Definition: I will, wish, desire, am willing, intend, design.
Cognate: 2309 thélō (a primitive verb, NAS dictionary) – to desire (wish, will), wanting what is best (optimal) because someone is ready and willing to act.
2309 /thélō ("to desire, wish") is commonly used of the Lord extending His "best-offer" to the believer – wanting (desiring) to birth His persuasion (faith) in them which also empowers, manifests His presence etc. See 2307 (thelēma).
[Note the close connection between faith (4102 /pístis, "God's inbirthed persuasion") and this root (thel-, 2307 /thélēma); cf. 2 Cor 8:5-7 and Heb 10:36-39).]
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
desire, be disposed toward, intend
Thel'-o or thel'-o or in certain tenses theleo thel-eh'-o, and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of haireomai; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas boulomai properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. Choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. Be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in -- desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).
And actually Mike is correct. Take a look at Hebrews 10:5 which is quoted from the OT Psalms 40:6. The word theló is used to replace the word chaphets which is:
1) to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with a) (Qal) 1) of men a) to take pleasure in, delight in b) to delight, desire, be pleased to do 2) of God a) to delight in, have pleasure in b) to be pleased to do 2) to move, bend down a) (Qal) to bend down
God takes no pleasure or delight in the death of the wicked, but His Justice will be done.
Hear and learn:
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord *GOD, 'I take no pleasure (DELIGHT) in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'
And actually Mike is correct. Take a look at Hebrews 10:5 which is quoted from the OT Psalms 40:6. The word theló is used to replace the word chaphets which is:
1) to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with a) (Qal) 1) of men a) to take pleasure in, delight in b) to delight, desire, be pleased to do 2) of God a) to delight in, have pleasure in b) to be pleased to do 2) to move, bend down a) (Qal) to bend down
God takes no pleasure or delight in the death of the wicked, but His Justice will be done.
Hear and learn:
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord *GOD, 'I take no pleasure (DELIGHT) in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'
What one has to understand is the cross is both awesome and fearful. It is awesome in that Christ died for us, and one can become born again, but it is dreadful who reject Him.
If what the Ur believe is true, then anything goes. What I mean is this- one can follow any religion, believe in any gods, reject Christ on earth, live in wickedness, or even blaspheme the Spirit of God. You claim God willfully makes one repent, correct? What no free will? I can show you scriptures where God has one choose a decision, either for or against Him that will show free will in the context of the Bible.
You negate the cross of Christ by giving an unscripted definition of God desiring and wanting one to come to Him.
Some claim they will go through a purification process in His holy fire or the Lake of fire-the second death.
Let me give you an example-
Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left...“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
So let's look at the bold for eternal life-- you claim eternal means ages to ages right, how long is that? There is an equal eternal reference in the punishment and life. We can conclude from scripture that eternal life is with God forever, everlasting, correct? Why can't one conclude that with punishment, eternally? Why the double standard when it pertains to eternal life and not eternal punishment.
Why? Because its in proper context with scriptures in the Old and New Testament corresponding with each other in harmony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
To the contrary.
Simply compare 1 Tim 2:4 with Mark 9:35. Both passages use Thelei in the Present Active Indicative. You've already listed 1 Tim 2:4, and you claim that because it is in the Indicative, that it means that God 'will' rather than simply 'desires' that all men be saved. This is incorrect. Here is Mark 9:35.
Mark 9:35 'And sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, ''If anyone wants - desires - Thelei - Present Active Indicative) to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all.''
The certainty is of God's desire that all men be saved.
Certainly God desires all men be saved. But He leaves it to man's free will to say 'yes' or 'no' to the gospel.
to will, wish
Original Word: θέλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: theló
Phonetic Spelling: ( eth-el'-o,)
Short Definition: I will, wish, desire
Definition: I will, wish, desire, am willing, intend, design.
Cognate: 2309 thélō (a primitive verb, NAS dictionary) – to desire (wish, will), wanting what is best (optimal) because someone is ready and willing to act.
2309 /thélō ("to desire, wish") is commonly used of the Lord extending His "best-offer" to the believer – wanting (desiring) to birth His persuasion (faith) in them which also empowers, manifests His presence etc. See 2307 (thelēma).
[Note the close connection between faith (4102 /pístis, "God's inbirthed persuasion") and this root (thel-, 2307 /thélēma); cf. 2 Cor 8:5-7 and Heb 10:36-39).]
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
desire, be disposed toward, intend
Thel'-o or thel'-o or in certain tenses theleo thel-eh'-o, and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of haireomai; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas boulomai properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. Choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. Be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in -- desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).
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...That's because it is you who has the problem. Jesus himself qualifies 1 Tim 2:4 that "all" isn't "all inclusive" in:
