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Not one verse says ... "all will believe". You of all people should be able to discern that. Jesus quailifies it as "whoever believes" and then follows with the consequences for not believing. Satan rewrites it the consequence of unbelief to mean UR.
Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar ,
but whoever does not believe will be condemned,
but whoever does not believe stands condemned alreadybecause he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
Amen.... twin.spin !!!
........... If a man doubts his way, Satan is always ready to help him to a new set of opinions. -- Lydia Maria Child
Not everyone that is SAYING (Present tense) wil enter the Kingdom of Heaven SO LONG AS THEY ARE NOT DOING THE WILL OF THE FATHER. Once they do the will of the Fathery - they are IN. This easily refutes the meaning you impose on the verse.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
How does this work?
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
What does the evil-doer have to look forward to? Can you show me a single verse that says the evil-doer will get a reprieve after the death of their flesh? Just 1? Anywhere from the OT to the New?
I have told you that the indicative is the mood of certainty. But you don't understand what that means. In the morning I will show you several passages both in the Present Active Indicative, and the Imperfect Active Indicative where the desire though certain, does not get fulfilled.
Yes, I know what certainty is - Everyone does. And the verse gives us the indicative mood for the word translated correctly as "will". So far you have been UNBLE to show that the word should be translated as "desire" instead of "will". I am awaiting your task.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
How does this work?
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
What does the evil-doer have to look forward to? Can you show me a single verse that says the evil-doer will get a reprieve after the death of their flesh? Just 1? Anywhere from the OT to the New?
I'll answer to other verses once we have established the clear undertanding of 1 Tim 2:4. So far nobody has been able to refute that the Greek Word G2309 theleo is correctly translated as "will" in that verse.
The way you read it renders the whole verse meaningless. It would mean that some people are more saved than others.
"The Saviour" is the title of Christ. You can call Him the saviour of all men since there are no other saviours, but it does mean He will save all men. Those who reject Christ will not be saved.
The way you read it renders the whole verse meaningless. It would mean that some people are more saved than others.
"The Saviour" is the title of Christ. You can call Him the saviour of all men since there are no other saviours, but it does mean He will save all men. Those who reject Christ will not be saved.
What part of the verse did herefornow render incorrectly? Be specific and we will investigate what the source text says.
Simply compare 1 Tim 2:4 with Mark 9:35. Both passages use Thelei in the Present Active Indicative. You've already listed 1 Tim 2:4, and you claim that because it is in the Indicative, that it means that God 'will' rather than simply 'desires' that all men be saved. This is incorrect. Here is Mark 9:35.
Mark 9:35 'And sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, ''If anyone wants - desires - Thelei - Present Active Indicative) to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all.''
The certainty is of God's desire that all men be saved.
Certainly God desires all men be saved. But He leaves it to man's free will to say 'yes' or 'no' to the gospel.
to will, wish
Original Word: θέλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: theló
Phonetic Spelling: ( eth-el'-o,)
Short Definition: I will, wish, desire
Definition: I will, wish, desire, am willing, intend, design.
Cognate: 2309 thélō (a primitive verb, NAS dictionary) – to desire (wish, will), wanting what is best (optimal) because someone is ready and willing to act.
2309 /thélō ("to desire, wish") is commonly used of the Lord extending His "best-offer" to the believer – wanting (desiring) to birth His persuasion (faith) in them which also empowers, manifests His presence etc. See 2307 (thelēma).
[Note the close connection between faith (4102 /pístis, "God's inbirthed persuasion") and this root (thel-, 2307 /thélēma); cf. 2 Cor 8:5-7 and Heb 10:36-39).]
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
desire, be disposed toward, intend
Thel'-o or thel'-o or in certain tenses theleo thel-eh'-o, and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of haireomai; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas boulomai properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. Choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. Be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in -- desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).
Mark 9:35 should be translated as "will". Like other translations translated 1 Tim 2:4 incorrectly it is translated incorrectly if it is doesn't read "will" here.
Again, when Strong's 2309 is indicative and speaks from a trusted source the meaning is assurred. It means CERTAINTY, to say otherwise goes AGAINST all we know about Greek grammar. This has already been shown. I gave a link before the such that the Indicative is the mood of CERTAINTY.
Mike, are your suggesting the INDICATIVE mood is not the mood of CERTAINTY? I bet you won't. Your probably not even answer that because you know the trap your in.
You are fooling yourself. If you were even halfway honest with yourself, you would never say that Mark 9:35 Should be translated as 'will'.
Mark 9:35 'And sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, ''If anyone wants - desires - Thelei - Present Active Indicative) to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all.''
As for strong's, I provided the definition for Thelei. In the indicative mood.
I have to wonder if you even bothered to read the post. For you to come back and say what you did would indicate that you did not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Were talking 1 Tim 2:4. Mike, again are you saying that the indicative mood is not the mood of certainty? - it is a yes or no question unless your unsure of yourself.
Yes. 1 Tim 2:4 is being discussed. And since you wrongly state that the indicative mood means that God doesn't simply desire that all men be saved, but that He will save all men, I am showing you that that is not true. And I am comparing the indicative mood of 1 Tim 2:4 with other passages which also are in the indicative mood, to establish that the certainty of the indicative mood does not refer to the fulfillment of the desire, but to the certainty of the desire. In some instances the indicative mood is clearly a desire. Compare the following passages.
1 Corinthians 7:7 'Yet I wish (thelo - Present Active Indicative) that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.' Paul's wish, his desire, was that all remain unmarried. His desire was not fulfilled.
1 Corinthians 14:5 ''Now I wish (thelo - Present Active Indicative) that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy...' Paul's wish, his desire, was that everyone spoke in tongues, and even more so, that everyone would prophesy. His desire was not fulfilled. It was merely a desire.
Matthew 15:28 'Then Jesus answered and said to her, ''O woman, your faith is great; be it done for you as you wish (theleis - Present Active Indicative). The Syrophoenician woman's desire was that Jesus would help her demon possessed daughter. Jesus fullfilled her desire.
Mark 9:35 'And sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, ''If anyone wants - desires ( Thelei - Present Active Indicative) to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all.'' Jesus said that if anyone desires to be first, then he must humble himself and be a servant.
Now some passages in the Imperfect Active Indicative.
John 16:19 'Jesus knew that they wished (ethelon - Imperfect Active Indicative) to question Him...'
Galatians 4:20 'but I could wish [I was wishing](ethelon - Imperfect Active Indicative) to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you. Paul wished, desired to be with the Galatians but wasn't.
Mark 7:24 'And from there, He arose and went away to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted (ethelen - Imperfect Active Indicative) no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. Jesus' desire was to not be noticed. But He could not escape notice. His desire was not fulfilled.
And now back to 1 Timothy 2:4 'who desires (thelei - Present Active Indicative) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The certainty of the indicative mood in 1 Tim 2:4 refers to God's desire. Not to the fulfillment of that desire.
All men will not be saved. The Scriptures declare it as the divine will that all should come to life. But he does not will to save men irrespective of the conditions of salvation. In order to be saved, men must come to a knowledge of the truth. In other words men must hear, receive, and obey the gospel.
Those who are interested in viewing these or any other verses in the Greek, with the transliteration as well as the translation, can go to the Biblos Interlinear Bible at this link. ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΠ1 Biblos Interlinear Bible Simply choose the book, chapter, and verse in the box at the upper left of the screen above the word Biblos. Move the cursor over the letters and numbers that are above each word in the verse to see the tense, mood, etc... The numbers are Strong's numbers.
I timothy 4:10. Jesus is the savior of all (pas) men, especially (malista) of those who believe.
does the church believe this???????????????? No, no, no, no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike555
jesus is the savior of all men only in the sense that by his work on the cross, he made salvation available to all men. But he is the savior especially of believers because it is only those who believe in christ who are actually saved.
Jesus made salvation possible through his work at the cross. But salvation is obtained only by those who believe in him for salvation. It is the difference between potential and reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow
mike, why do you want to rewrite the scriptures? "jesus is the savior of all men, but only of those who believe?"
1 Tim 4:10 'For it is for this purpose we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Simply compare with John 3:16.
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world [the living God who is the Savior of all men,] that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him [especially of believers] should not perish but have eternal life.
I'll answer to other verses once we have established the clear undertanding of 1 Tim 2:4. So far nobody has been able to refute that the Greek Word G2309 theleo is correctly translated as "will" in that verse.
Sorry. I have already settled that argument, based upon the Hebrew text by which the Greek word was derived. It isn't will, it is desire, or pleasure. Which is why we let scripture, interpret scripture. This way, there can be NO argument.
Yes. 1 Tim 2:4 is being discussed. And since you wrongly state that the indicative mood means that God doesn't simply desire that all men be saved, but that He will save all men, I am showing you that that is not true. And I am comparing the indicative mood of 1 Tim 2:4 with other passages which also are in the indicative mood, to establish that the certainty of the indicative mood does not refer to the fulfillment of the desire, but to the certainty of the desire. In some instances the indicative mood is clearly a desire. Compare the following passages.
1 Corinthians 7:7 'Yet I wish (thelo - Present Active Indicative) that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.' Paul's wish, his desire, was that all remain unmarried. His desire was not fulfilled.
1 Corinthians 14:5 ''Now I wish (thelo - Present Active Indicative) that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy...' Paul's wish, his desire, was that everyone spoke in tongues, and even more so, that everyone would prophesy. His desire was not fulfilled. It was merely a desire.
Matthew 15:28 'Then Jesus answered and said to her, ''O woman, your faith is great; be it done for you as you wish (theleis - Present Active Indicative). The Syrophoenician woman's desire was that Jesus would help her demon possessed daughter. Jesus fullfilled her desire.
Mark 9:35 'And sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, ''If anyone wants - desires ( Thelei - Present Active Indicative) to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all.'' Jesus said that if anyone desires to be first, then he must humble himself and be a servant.
Now some passages in the Imperfect Active Indicative.
John 16:19 'Jesus knew that they wished (ethelon - Imperfect Active Indicative) to question Him...'
Galatians 4:20 'but I could wish [I was wishing](ethelon - Imperfect Active Indicative) to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you. Paul wished, desired to be with the Galatians but wasn't.
Mark 7:24 'And from there, He arose and went away to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted (ethelen - Imperfect Active Indicative) no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. Jesus' desire was to not be noticed. But He could not escape notice. His desire was not fulfilled.
And now back to 1 Timothy 2:4 'who desires (thelei - Present Active Indicative) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The certainty of the indicative mood in 1 Tim 2:4 refers to God's desire. Not to the fulfillment of that desire.
All men will not be saved. The Scriptures declare it as the divine will that all should come to life. But he does not will to save men irrespective of the conditions of salvation. In order to be saved, men must come to a knowledge of the truth. In other words men must hear, receive, and obey the gospel.
Those who are interested in viewing these or any other verses in the Greek, with the transliteration as well as the translation, can go to the Biblos Interlinear Bible at this link. ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΠ1 Biblos Interlinear Bible Simply choose the book, chapter, and verse in the box at the upper left of the screen above the word Biblos. Move the cursor over the letters and numbers that are above each word in the verse to see the tense, mood, etc... The numbers are Strong's numbers.
Your confusing certaining with fulfillment. A liar can say something in the indicative mood - it doesn't mean that they will get it fulfilled. But in 1 Tim 2:4 we have the indicative mood being used in reference to what God will do and from a trusted source. So if you want to compare that correctly regarding fulfillment then you need to compare another indicative where God is said to "will" something. With God certainty IS certain. You have provided no examples from your verses that compares that - which maintains that 1 Tim 2:4 is correctly translated as "will".
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