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This is my response on another thread which hits the point better-
Under your doctorine, one not only does not have to accept Christ on earth, they do not have to read their BIble, worship other gods and religions and lived wicked. His judgment and the cross would be a joke. When you say God's judgement are severe, in your belief, what does that look like? What exactly is God's refining fire going to look like?
Where does it say in the Bible if one rejects Christ's salvation that He will have a severe, fiery indignation against them? Where does it state if we reject Him, then He will accept Him?
So because God is a consuming fire, that means the Lake of FIre is a metaphor, how is that? Where does it say that when one is casted in the Lake of FIre their carnal spirit will be refined?
God will do away with death (#4) and throw it in the Lake of Fire, that is how He is doing away with it, not eliminatling it, putting hell/death wicked, devil etc... there.
That's great your twisting scripture in Romans 9:
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
Pharaoh had a free will like us. Look in the Old Testament, and how many signs God did through Moses, for God bore great patience in Him, but Pharoah refused to let His people go. So, God decided He will harden His heart and use him as an object of wrath.
No different than us. IF we love wickedness rather than truth, love evil instead of good, God will hand us over to it.
Here in Romans 1:28-
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Where in the Bible does it say that God's soverignty that everyone who loves or hates, believes in other gods, or reject Christ say "come on in" I love you.
You fail to address free will in man, where God tells Ezekiel the following:This is the Lord talking to Ezekiel 3:18-21
When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[b] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself. “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”
You see, a righteous person and unrighteous have a decisions- continue to follow good or follow evil or turn from evil or turn from good. It is no difference for us. You don't see free will in that? You don't see one can make a decions, by oneself, to go right or left? Where is free will not taken into account?
I Timothy 4:10. Jesus is the savior of ALL (pas) men, especially (malista) of those who believe.
Does the church believe this???????????????? No, no, no, no.
See, here we have a conflict between Paul, and what Jesus said. Using the word (pas), have a look at Jesus' Words.
Not every one (PAS) that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
So, I would take this to mean all, individually, like the definition states:
1) individually a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything 2) collectively a) some of all types
The first definition listed, is always the most common usage, or so I am told. It is up to the Spirit, and the Word itself, to decipher what the meaning is, behind each word.
I Timothy 4:10. Jesus is the savior of ALL (pas) men, especially (malista) of those who believe.
Does the church believe this???????????????? No, no, no, no.
Jesus is the Savior of all men only in the sense that by His work on the Cross, He made salvation available to all men. But He is the Savior especially of believers because it is only those who believe in Christ who are ACTUALLY saved.
Jesus made salvation possible through His work at the cross. But salvation is obtained only by those who believe in Him for salvation. It is the difference between potential and reality.
Jesus is the Savior of all men only in the sense that by His work on the Cross, He made salvation available to all men. But He is the Savior especially of believers because it is only those who believe in Christ who are ACTUALLY saved.
Jesus made salvation possible through His work at the cross. But salvation is obtained only by those who believe in Him for salvation. It is the difference between potential and reality.
Simply compare 1 Tim 2:4 with Mark 9:35. Both passages use Thelei in the Present Active Indicative. You've already listed 1 Tim 2:4, and you claim that because it is in the Indicative, that it means that God 'will' rather than simply 'desires' that all men be saved. This is incorrect. Here is Mark 9:35.
Mark 9:35 should be translated as "will". Like other translations translated 1 Tim 2:4 incorrectly it is translated incorrectly if it is doesn't read "will" here.
Quote:
Mark 9:35 'And sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, ''If anyone wants - desires - Thelei - Present Active Indicative) to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all.''
The certainty is of God's desire that all men be saved.
Certainly God desires all men be saved. But He leaves it to man's free will to say 'yes' or 'no' to the gospel.
to will, wish
Original Word: θέλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: theló
Phonetic Spelling: ( eth-el'-o,)
Short Definition: I will, wish, desire
Definition: I will, wish, desire, am willing, intend, design.
Cognate: 2309 thélō (a primitive verb, NAS dictionary) – to desire (wish, will), wanting what is best (optimal) because someone is ready and willing to act.
2309 /thélō ("to desire, wish") is commonly used of the Lord extending His "best-offer" to the believer – wanting (desiring) to birth His persuasion (faith) in them which also empowers, manifests His presence etc. See 2307 (thelēma).
[Note the close connection between faith (4102 /pístis, "God's inbirthed persuasion") and this root (thel-, 2307 /thélēma); cf. 2 Cor 8:5-7 and Heb 10:36-39).]
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
desire, be disposed toward, intend
Thel'-o or thel'-o or in certain tenses theleo thel-eh'-o, and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of haireomai; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas boulomai properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. Choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. Be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in -- desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).
Again, when Strong's 2309 is indicative and speaks from a trusted source the meaning is assurred. It means CERTAINTY, to say otherwise goes AGAINST all we know about Greek grammar. This has already been shown. I gave a link before the such that the Indicative is the mood of CERTAINTY.
Mike, are your suggesting the INDICATIVE mood is not the mood of CERTAINTY? I bet you won't. Your probably not even answer that because you know the trap your in.
And actually Mike is correct. Take a look at Hebrews 10:5 which is quoted from the OT Psalms 40:6. The word theló is used to replace the word chaphets which is:
1) to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with a) (Qal) 1) of men a) to take pleasure in, delight in b) to delight, desire, be pleased to do 2) of God a) to delight in, have pleasure in b) to be pleased to do 2) to move, bend down a) (Qal) to bend down
God takes no pleasure or delight in the death of the wicked, but His Justice will be done.
Hear and learn:
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord *GOD, 'I take no pleasure (DELIGHT) in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'
It meanss that in the verse that God didn't WILL it. Not "desire". "Desire" is a flawed translation. Again, the indicative mood is the mood of certainty. Are you going to say that the indcative mood is not the mood of CERTAINTY? - if so then we can argue from that perspective but AS LONG AS it is shown that the indicative mood is the mood of CERTAINTY then any translation that doesn't translate accordingly is flawed.
What one has to understand is the cross is both awesome and fearful. It is awesome in that Christ died for us, and one can become born again, but it is dreadful who reject Him.
If what the Ur believe is true, then anything goes. What I mean is this- one can follow any religion, believe in any gods, reject Christ on earth, live in wickedness, or even blaspheme the Spirit of God. You claim God willfully makes one repent, correct? What no free will? I can show you scriptures where God has one choose a decision, either for or against Him that will show free will in the context of the Bible.
You negate the cross of Christ by giving an unscripted definition of God desiring and wanting one to come to Him.
Some claim they will go through a purification process in His holy fire or the Lake of fire-the second death.
Let me give you an example-
Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left...“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
So let's look at the bold for eternal life-- you claim eternal means ages to ages right, how long is that? There is an equal eternal reference in the punishment and life. We can conclude from scripture that eternal life is with God forever, everlasting, correct? Why can't one conclude that with punishment, eternally? Why the double standard when it pertains to eternal life and not eternal punishment.
Why? Because its in proper context with scriptures in the Old and New Testament corresponding with each other in harmony.
That is a fallacy. Most universalists don't believe that. We teach that God is almighty enough to bring everyone to belief.
This is my response on another thread which hits the point better-
Under your doctorine, one not only does not have to accept Christ on earth, they do not have to read their BIble, worship other gods and religions and lived wicked. His judgment and the cross would be a joke. When you say God's judgement are severe, in your belief, what does that look like? What exactly is God's refining fire going to look like?
Where does it say in the Bible if one rejects Christ's salvation that He will have a severe, fiery indignation against them? Where does it state if we reject Him, then He will accept Him?
So because God is a consuming fire, that means the Lake of FIre is a metaphor, how is that? Where does it say that when one is casted in the Lake of FIre their carnal spirit will be refined?
God will do away with death (#4) and throw it in the Lake of Fire, that is how He is doing away with it, not eliminatling it, putting hell/death wicked, devil etc... there.
That's great your twisting scripture in Romans 9:
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
Pharaoh had a free will like us. Look in the Old Testament, and how many signs God did through Moses, for God bore great patience in Him, but Pharoah refused to let His people go. So, God decided He will harden His heart and use him as an object of wrath.
No different than us. IF we love wickedness rather than truth, love evil instead of good, God will hand us over to it.
Here in Romans 1:28-
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Where in the Bible does it say that God's soverignty that everyone who loves or hates, believes in other gods, or reject Christ say "come on in" I love you.
You fail to address free will in man, where God tells Ezekiel the following:This is the Lord talking to Ezekiel 3:18-21
When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[b] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself. “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”
You see, a righteous person and unrighteous have a decisions- continue to follow good or follow evil or turn from evil or turn from good. It is no difference for us. You don't see free will in that? You don't see one can make a decions, by oneself, to go right or left? Where is free will not taken into account?
You need to learn how God hated Esau before he was even born and why it is that God can find fault. Start searching the answers are in God's Word but don't strike at others for what you don't yet comprehend. Remember God will have every tongue to confess that Jesus is Lord and the only people that can confess that Jesus is Lord is those that have the Holy Spirit.
See, here we have a conflict between Paul, and what Jesus said. Using the word (pas), have a look at Jesus' Words.
Not every one (PAS) that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
So, I would take this to mean all, individually, like the definition states:
1) individually a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything 2) collectively a) some of all types
The first definition listed, is always the most common usage, or so I am told. It is up to the Spirit, and the Word itself, to decipher what the meaning is, behind each word.
Not everyone that is SAYING (Present tense) wil enter the Kingdom of Heaven SO LONG AS THEY ARE NOT DOING THE WILL OF THE FATHER. Once they do the will of the Fathery - they are IN. This easily refutes the meaning you impose on the verse.
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