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Seems to me that when it all boils down to it, it's a battle between happiness and misery. The Universalists seem happy, and the ETers seem miserable. And since misery loves company, it stands to reason that the ET folks are the quickest to speak up and spread their hate-filled beliefs because, well, like I said- misery loves company. The universalists usually just seem to speak up as a means to defend what they believe in response to the ET posts, and aren't usually as judgemental or confrontational as the ETers- and are almost NEVER as rude and ugly. But therein lies the perfect fuel for some pretty fiery arguments/debates, since they are both so diametrically opposed, what with one view being hate/fear based and the other being love/acceptance based. There will always be an ongoing battle between the two beliefs.
And maybe it's just me, but the ETers claim to want to 'save' others 'because they care, and luuuuv others so...' but I rarely see any remote degree of love or genuine care or kindness from them, rather a lot smugness and self righteousness...
Keep in mind this is merely my own observation, as someone who believes in NEITHER of the aforementioned belief systems, so I believe I am being very unbiased and fair, and simply stating what I've come to see (generally speaking only, of course) on here.
Its a debate on Salvation , whether you need it through obedience to the Words of Jesus Christ.... or the rejection of salvation by Universalism ideas, all are saved anyway
And those consequences are..........?That someday I will be raised from the dead and have to eat crow?
Seems to me you preach that he is going to win in the end.....all will come to him....sin (even mine) will be eradicated.
Yeah, Heartsong....sounds a little weird, doesn't it?
It's just that UR seems rather like a "can't lose" proposition so why struggle with that narrow road.
This is the primary misconception ((lie) spread by the mainstream ET churches against UR. They claim Christ is not needed . . . but they misconstrue it as an overt (and meaningless) intellectual acknowledgment ("believe in") . . . not an inner acceptance ("believe on"). They claim there is no reaping what you sow . . . which is absurd. Everything we have ever held in our consciousness still exists as part of our eternal soul (who we really are). We have to change the unacceptable by repentance (in this life) and the grace of Jesus . . . or refinement (in the next. There are consequences and they are not likely to be pleasant or trivial. So we can lose . . . but we are still saved as by fire.
"There are consequences and they are not likely to be pleasant or trivial"
So I heard before ....and as I asked before(without a reply)....what are those consequences?
The self-imposed regret and remorse (weeping and gnashing of teeth) at your own willfulness or obtuseness and obliviousness to the plight of others whom you affected in this life (which will be made very clear to you . . . no memory lapses). This is likely to be accompanied by you actually mentally experiencing all the consequences you personally caused to others during your life.
The thing is that Christian Universalism is the only form of Christianity that teaches that God is in fact the savior of all people, and will in fact accomplish his desire and will to save all people.
The gospel message of Christian Universalism is literally diametrically opposed to the message of nearly every other form of Christianity, as they teach that the gospel truth is that most of humanity is doomed forever, and that God is only the savior of a very small percentage of people, and that he will never accomplish his desire or purpose to save all people.
So either Christian Universalists are enemies of the gospel, or it is all other Christians who teach that Christ was a failure in his mission to accomplish Gods plan to save all people.
That is to say that Christian universalists are spiritually at enmity with all other forms of Christianity which deny the full victory of Christ over sin and death throughout all creation.
For hundreds of years Christian Universalists were hunted down and imprisoned and tortured an murdered at the hands of the orthodox fundamentalist church leaders who themselves depend on the evil doctrines of everlasting doom for most of humanity in order to maintain their positions of power over the laity.
So either Christian Universalists are the enemies of the true Gospel, or it is every other Christian who dispute the doctrine of UR.
Knowing that people have in the past murdered and tortured others over this very issue is enough to make for passionate discussions/debates between all parties. After all, for some people the idea that most of humanity deserves to be tortured and or exterminated forever is only a little away from the "kill em' all and let God sort them out" mentality ...
From my experience, there are many who believe in the deserved doom of most of humanity who are murderers in their hearts, even if they have never actually done murder. If we were in the dark ages and the option was still open to torture and murder all those they deemed to be heretics and blasphemers, many of them would be right there in the front row with pliers and tongs and heated implements in hand, while the bonfire was a preparing outside, ready to make you confess your blaspheme and heresy before they burned you alive.
After all, they are just trying to save your soul from everlasting torture and or eradication after you die with a little torture now in this life ... That was the common excuse for the "Christian church" torturing and murdering millions of innocent people for hundreds of years after all.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-30-2010 at 10:47 AM..
Its a debate on Salvation , whether you need it through obedience to the Words of Jesus Christ.... or the rejection of salvation by Universalism ideas, all are saved anyway
That isn't true. Most of us universalists (I think most), believe that obedience is requires for salvation but that lack of such obedience at this time doesn't mean it will lack later. We believe one can only be obedient by God's Spirit working thru them. And in time we believe God will give ALL His Spirit.
Its a debate on Salvation , whether you need it through obedience to the Words of Jesus Christ.... or the rejection of salvation by Universalism ideas, all are saved anyway
Right. URs say that if you reject Jesus, you are still going to heaven because you will be forced to believe in Him after you die. This is how they will explain that Jesus is still needed. He is needed for the after-death conversion process, and that is how they can attach the word "Christian" to the Universalises. But of course the truth is that Jesus came here to EARTH and suffered and died for the LIVING people, so that THOSE WHO BELIEVE will have eternal life. Salvation is for the living, and the Bible was not written for the dead, but for the living.
Right. URs say that if you reject Jesus, you are still going to heaven because you will be forced to believe in Him after you die. This is how they will explain that Jesus is still needed. He is needed for the after-death conversion process, and that is how they can attach the word "Christian" to the Universalises. But of course the truth is that Jesus came here to EARTH and suffered and died for the LIVING people, so that THOSE WHO BELIEVE will have eternal life. Salvation is for the living, and the Bible was not written for the dead, but for the living.
That's interesting, Finn.
So you believe all those billions of people who died before Jesus died, that their sins were not died for? So all the patriarchs all go to your hell and billions of others because they died before Jesus died?
Right. URs say that if you reject Jesus, you are still going to heaven because you will be forced to believe in Him after you die. This is how they will explain that Jesus is still needed. He is needed for the after-death conversion process, and that is how they can attach the word "Christian" to the Universalises. But of course the truth is that Jesus came here to EARTH and suffered and died for the LIVING people, so that THOSE WHO BELIEVE will have eternal life. Salvation is for the living, and the Bible was not written for the dead, but for the living.
Wrong again Finny ... Christ is needed according to UR because he had to die for sin in order that not only those of us that are now believing might be saved, but also for the sin of the whole world that all people should be saved and come a a knowledge of the truth. But you like to leave that part out right?
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