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I enjoy reading the posts of those who believe in ET as well as UR, but I feel that I fall somewhere in the middle. The entire subject plagues my conscience, as I can't believe that either is true. Let me explain. Will both sides please help me with understanding this better?
ET'ers (the belief structure I was raised in) believe that only those who are washed with the blood of the Lamb by the acceptance of Christ as their personal Lord and Savior will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Anyone that falls short of this will experience Hell.
UR's believe that EVERYONE, regardless of their spiritual background, will be with Christ in Heaven (please correct me if I'm wrong on this understanding).
I will start by saying that I believe in Heaven, as well as Hell. There is a majority of humans in this world (past,present, and future) who live wonderful, decent lives, that according to the ET'ers, will never be saved. Would a LOVING GOD not have another plan for them, as annihilation is much more merciful than eternal damnation? To me, annihilation means nothingness, just like it was before birth. I am perfectly OK with that. I don't care if I make it to Heaven. I just don't want to burn in Hell. But the concept of a god that damns everyone except ET'ers to Hell just does not compute with me. It makes me not want to believe in such a cruel deity.
On the flipside, I have seen the evil that exists in our world, and I recognize that there are people that commit despicable acts without any type of conscience or remorse for their actions. They are the sick, the twisted, the wretched, the truly evil and wicked that live this life purely to spite and deny anything good in nature. With the same lack of belief that I have in the ET doctrine of Hell for all those that do not meet the "standard", I believe that the utterly wicked will NEVER see Heaven. I do believe that Hell will be a reality for SOME.
So, in closing, I ask this. Why would a LOVING God not have annihilation as the fate for those people who fall in between these extremes? I know the ET'ers will just paste more scripture. This is not what I want, as it just gets SO old, SO fast, time after time. I want there to be a certain level of common sense and personal feeling attatched to the posts.
Thank You All, and Happy New Year!
Last edited by ditchlights; 01-01-2011 at 08:22 PM..
I enjoy reading the posts of those who believe in ET as well as UR, but I feel that I fall somewhere in the middle. The entire subject plagues my conscience, as I can't believe that either is true. Let me explain. Will both sides please help me with understanding this better?
ET'ers (the belief structure I was raised in) believe that only those who are washed with the blood of the Lamb by the acceptance of Christ as their personal Lord and Savior will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Anyone that falls short of this will experience Hell.
UR's believe that EVERYONE, regardless of their spiritual background, will be with Christ in Heaven (please correct me if I'm wrong on this understanding).
I will start by saying that I believe in Heaven, as well as Hell. There is a majority of humans in this world (past,present, and future) who live wonderful, decent lives, that according to the ET'ers, will never be saved. Would a LOVING GOD not have another plan for them, as annihilation is much more merciful than eternal damnation? To me, annihilation means nothingness, just like it was before birth. I am perfectly OK with that. I don't care if I make it to Heaven. I just don't want to burn in Hell. But the concept of a god that damns everyone except ET'ers to Hell just does not compute with me. It makes me not want to believe in such a cruel deity.
On the flipside, I have seen the evil that exists in our world, and I recognize that there are people that commit despicable acts without any type of conscience or remorse for their actions. They are the sick, the twisted, the wretched, the truly evil and wicked that live this life purely to spite and deny anything good in nature. With the same lack of belief that I have in the ET doctrine of Hell, I believe that the utterly wicked will NEVER see Heaven.
So, in closing, I ask this. Why would a LOVING God not have annihilation as the fate for those people who fall in between these extremes? I know the ET'ers will just paste more scripture. This is not what I want, as it just gets SO old, SO fast, time after time. I want there to be a certain level of common sense and personal feeling attatched to the posts.
I realize justice must be served, and I also know what the punishment for us committing sins are,,which is death,,without a Redeemer in Jesus Christ.
I also believe that God alone judges the hearts of men, and just because they do not KNOW who Jesus is,,,they may be living according to His Law written on their hearts. Romans 2:14-16.
But the wicked shall be extinguished. This much is sure of,,,as per the Word of God.
I am a 99.9 percent UR believer, with a sliver of doubt reserved for the possibility of annihilation of the extreme wicked, those who practice cruelty and hold people in bondage with fear, torture, and the like. If there is annihilation, I would bet it could include many church people who take advantage of people by using fear of eternal torment and extort money from them (robbing widows and children, spiritually speaking). But there are so many UR scriptures, and God is more merciful than me, so I lean toward forgiveness for all. I think everyone will be held to account (be ashamed of) his/her sin whether in this world or the world to come. I don't fear that people are getting away with sin because the Light will always shine and the truth cannot be hidden from the Light of God. People can hide their wicked thoughts and their selfish motives for a time, most especially in this world - but not forever. Knowing that there is no hiding forever is a good incentive to welcome God's cleansing now rather than being thrown into a spiritual lake of fire. I think there are many religious people, including those who preach ET the loudest who use the name of Jesus as some sort of magic talisman as if literally speaking or confessing his name J-E-S-U-S cleanses their hidden hearts and the churches have taught people to do this. We know whether or not we have been honest with God about what is in us. All is laid bare before Him.
I enjoy reading the posts of those who believe in ET as well as UR, but I feel that I fall somewhere in the middle. The entire subject plagues my conscience, as I can't believe that either is true. Let me explain. Will both sides please help me with understanding this better?
ET'ers (the belief structure I was raised in) believe that only those who are washed with the blood of the Lamb by the acceptance of Christ as their personal Lord and Savior will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Anyone that falls short of this will experience Hell.
UR's believe that EVERYONE, regardless of their spiritual background, will be with Christ in Heaven (please correct me if I'm wrong on this understanding).
I will start by saying that I believe in Heaven, as well as Hell. There is a majority of humans in this world (past,present, and future) who live wonderful, decent lives, that according to the ET'ers, will never be saved. Would a LOVING GOD not have another plan for them, as annihilation is much more merciful than eternal damnation? To me, annihilation means nothingness, just like it was before birth. I am perfectly OK with that. I don't care if I make it to Heaven. I just don't want to burn in Hell. But the concept of a god that damns everyone except ET'ers to Hell just does not compute with me. It makes me not want to believe in such a cruel deity.
On the flipside, I have seen the evil that exists in our world, and I recognize that there are people that commit despicable acts without any type of conscience or remorse for their actions. They are the sick, the twisted, the wretched, the truly evil and wicked that live this life purely to spite and deny anything good in nature. With the same lack of belief that I have in the ET doctrine of Hell for all those that do not meet the "standard", I believe that the utterly wicked will NEVER see Heaven. I do believe that Hell will be a reality for SOME.
So, in closing, I ask this. Why would a LOVING God not have annihilation as the fate for those people who fall in between these extremes? I know the ET'ers will just paste more scripture. This is not what I want, as it just gets SO old, SO fast, time after time. I want there to be a certain level of common sense and personal feeling attatched to the posts.
Thank You All, and Happy New Year!
A loving almighty God can convert the most wreched of sinners. The ETers and annihilationists don't usually believe this. So if you don't believe God can then pick one of the others. In time, He will convince you otherwise.
If your ready to give up on God because you seem to think you have all the answers to life then don't worship him. It's as simple as that. God has no time for lukewarm Christians trying to figure out the reasons why God appoints things as they are when it's clear as night and day that we will never fully understand. It's about having faith that he will take care of it all in due time. This is how we lose Christians. We have human beings constantly trying to figure out the infinite mind of God!! You will never fully understand him no matter how hard you try. But it is up to you to take faith and trust in him for he created the heavens and the earth. You said there are plenty of people living wonderful decent lives?! According to who?! YOU?? Do you know what they do behind close doors?! Do you know what kind of activities they participate in? Do you know what kinds of cults or groups they are involved in? I have find out over the years that many people that seem to be "nice and wonderful" people can be the most dark hearted in disguise. It's called being a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing. Many people are wolves under the guise of being "just a nice guy" or a "sweet girl". I know these 2 girls from last year. Very sweet girls. But who would know one of them was an active satanist and the other a devout Atheist? Best friends btw. Sure they were nice, but every opportunity they had for a project or a presentation, they would take it to blaspheme the name of God and Christians. Who knows what kind of websites and forums they were on blasting Jesus and God!! I know this other boy who I THOUGHT foolishly was a Christian. His name was Christian ironically! He was raised in a devout Christian home and his brothers are Christian but I found out he was involved in so many un-Christian activities. Such as cutting himself and drinking and playing with his blood! He puts on his facebook "Atheist will never know the love of Jesus Christ" as a personal reminder to himself what a Christian told him. He's an Atheist now and just living and doing all kinds of disgusting and gross activities. All the while many people still think he's a Christian. I'm sorry but there are many people who are involved in the most nasty and low down things that are proclaiming to be "wonderful" and "nice" people. But you would NEVER know. Only God does. That is why you trust in him. The folk that are in Hell couldn't be saved even if could get out again. Because they wanted TOTAL and ABSOLUTE separation from the living God. They REFUSED to repent for their sins. I'm absolutely sure there were millions of these supposed "nice" people in Hell that treated others well but that doesn't mean they were right with God. They were probably nice and open-hearted to everyone else but the one that died on the cross for them. It's sad and it's pathetic all at the same time. I don't have time for it and neither does he. Choose who you'll serve and take faith in. The time is up. Jesus' return is THIS close. You better have chosen by that time or else you'll be left behind like the rest of these "wonderful" and "nice" people that are living their lives eating and drinking, being merry as if they have the rest of lives, and not knowing what is come.
This is going to be long. and this this is my view, I'm sharing, not debating. It took many years, much praying, much tearing apart and dissecting and much, much, much thought. If you don't see it the way I do, that's totally fine. Just sharing what is inside of me as one human being to another:
I believe in universal reconcilation. I believe this is the only possible outcome which glorifies God. I firmly believe in "Love conquers ALL."
Annihilation does not glorify God. To me, it says that God has failed. That LOVE has failed. That there is something MORE powerful than Love. I don't believe there is anything MORE powerful than Love for GOD IS LOVE.
Those who hate God do not yet know His true character. I hated God for many years.. (and told him so often.) I did not know Him. The God I hated did not exist.
Those who "reject God" do not yet know His true character. The God they reject does not exist.
There is nowhere that anyone of us can go that is "too far" into the darkness that His hand cannot reach. It is impossible. He is the Good Shepherd who is not satisifed with just 99%. He will ALWAYS go after the ONE that is lost.
The ones who went furthest in the darkness... are those who are the MOST in need of HIS LOVE. Those who went the FURTHEST in the darkness are those who will be the MOST HEALED. THIS is the picture of Victory. That LOVE CONQUERS ALL.
Once the POWER of LOVE starts to unfold and starts to really manifest in your heart and in your mind and in your spirit, once you taste it and smell it, hold it in your hands, turn it over and really LOOK AT IT, then you will start to understand how anything less than 100% reconciled is impossible.
It's like a spiritual law that cannot be broken. There is ZERO chance that not all will be reconciled. Otherwise... something IS more powerful than God. God is LOVE.
And that is IMPOSSIBLE.
NOTHING is more powerful than God.
Human beings are all in various levels of darkness. Darkness is ignorance. Nothing more. Just sheer ignorance. We are NOT KNOWING something.
We are all slowly walking OUT of the darkness, and it is all happening as it should. The problem comes when you look at another human being and think to yourself "Well they have no excuse! There are preachers and churches everywhere. Everyone knows who God is."
NO. NO THEY DO NOT.
I had no idea who God was the first 30 years of my life. For all I knew He was some arrogant, psychotic, immature, weak, schizophrenic, homicidal megalomaniac who didn't know the first thing about love but claimed to BE LOVE. That's pretty much what is seemed like a whole heck of a lot of the "God knowers" were basically preaching. Once you looked past the pretty hats and plastered smiles. That was at the core. A madman.
That God does not exist. Except for in the dark recesses of the human mind.
There are many who do not believe in God, yet they LOVE their neighbor as theirselves. These people KNOW God, they just do not yet KNOW that they KNOW Him. But they do know Him. They WILL recognize Him.
There are many who believe in God yet do NOT know His TRUE character. And they will NOT recognize Him.
Hitler, yes... Hitler will be reconciled. If He were annihilated, then Hitler's evil will have proven to be MORE POWERFUL than God's love. Hitler's NON-LOVE will have OVERPOWERED GOD and God will have had no choice but to pretend like He never existed. Well, that doesn't work. Because that only means that it could happen again. That somewhere in the future existence that another Hitler could eventually rise up again. Afterall, that non-love was never conquered!That NON-LOVE was never subdued, overcome! ALL non-love WILL be and MUST be overcome BY LOVE.
He is weaving a tapestry, and everything happening (great and small) are threads in that tapestry. All lives are threads. It is slowly being woven. When this tapestry is finally finished, and we see the big picture, we will all learn and understand just WHAT the darkness was, just WHAT non-love was and we will see it finally for what it was. WEAK. POWERLESS. NOTHING. It was the DESTROYER. It was the ENEMY. and it never stood a chance against the POWER of LOVE.
LOVE CONQUERS ALL. We are in the MIDST of it. So we cannot yet see it. But we WILL. All lives are precious. All lives are part of it. We are ALL brothers and sisters.
Those who lived in the MOST darkness, may end up, in the end teaching us the MOST about the power of love. The power of God.
This is what I see.
I see 100% complete and TOTAL victory.
Anything less... and He wouldn't be a God that I could trust or call "all powerful" or call "LOVE". I don't have to worry about that, though. and for that, I am eternally grateful.
It has changed my entire life and my entire way of viewing our Creator, of viewing others and this world in which we live and our future, together.
peace,
sparrow
P.S. I also have to say that I believe, FIRMLY believe, once we pass from this life in this world, THAT is where the REAL learning will begin, in my eyes. Our lives here, OUR SUFFERINGS here are creating a GLORY that cannot be compared. Think on that. AS A WHOLE And as individuals, but ESPECIALLY AS A WHOLE!!!! OUR (COLLECTIVE) sufferings (as we WALK along in this world being "separated" from God, immersed in this contrast of LOVE and NON-LOVE) these sufferings are creating something for us....
Think about it. Think about what that might be.
Last edited by .sparrow.; 01-01-2011 at 09:59 PM..
WOW Allen! I must say.... You do not write your posts in a way that makes it easy to read. A line break would be good every so often.
That being said, your post seems VERY angry. You seem to point out everything that you deem bad in a few people you have met, on-line or in person, according to your standards. If you read my ENTIRE original post accurately, instead of just picking through it for something you could slam on, your response would have been different. At least I would hope so.
I NEVER said I had "all the answers in life". If I did, I would not have created this thread. It is ignorant answers like yours that drive potential believers away from Christ. I never said that I don't believe that He created the Heavens and the earth. How do you come up with these assumptions? You wouldn't know a decent person if you met one, because NOBODY meets your standards.
No. Wait a minute. You're trolling here, right. Really... No one can post something like you just did without being a troll, joker, or a little off-balanced. Maybe a combination of the three. If you're telling the truth, you must hang out with strange crowds. You crack me up.
All I can say is....... WOW!
A troll? Are you kidding me? Why would I be a troll? I've been on these religious forums for about 2 years now saying the exact same thing since I started. What I was doing was speaking truth and you couldn't handle it. If your beliefs in God are hanging onto whether or not folk burn in hell for an eternity, I would say your a lukewarm believer. How could you have your faith in jeopardy because your concerned about what happens to people who are way past dead and either in heaven or hell?! That's what I DON'T understand. Universalist are so concerned with other people's fates that they have entirely transformed the word of God to fit their agendas. Instead of focusing on trying to save people's souls NOW so that they can go to Heaven, they are focused on people who are DEAD and their fates long ago decided!
We either go to Heaven or Hell for an eternity. Period. Plain and simple. If your really prepared to forsake God because of that, be prepared for him to forsake you. You did not create the heavens and the Earth or human beings, therefore you have no merit or right to question what God does. Especially since he gives the gift of eternal life to us for simply believing his son died on the cross for our sins and repenting from them. It's people own rebellious nature that makes them reject the gospel and it's nobodies fault or on anyone else's conscience when they end up in Hell. God knows our hearts and he can feel whether you want to be eternally separated from him. The people in Hell WANTED to be eternally separated from him and even if they got another chance, they would repeat the same mistake because their hearts are twisted and hardened towards him. You need to make sure your heart is open towards him. I don't claim to agree with everything that God has appointed but I know it's for a higher purpose and being. I know that it's for a reason I will know later on in Heaven. But I'm focusing on my salvation and not on other peoples. I preach to others in hopes they will get the word and it will speak to their hearts. But I'm not going to lie and transform the word of God to get or drive more unbelievers to accept Christ. That is just leading them down a bad path because nothing will have changed. We need to know the consequences of our sin and living in it. We must repent always and must have full faith in God to take care of things. We will NOT have all the answers.
Ditch, you seem to be a nice person, and I hope your analysis of this topic is making you feel more comfortable with your beliefs.
You may not put much store in the opinion of an athiest like me, but I will say that if I were to believe in god, heaven, and hell, then I would definitely agree with your thoughts.
I think religion is supposed to comfort people, not drive them nuts.
Thank you, Sparrow, for your heartfelt reply and taking the time write it. This is the type of feedback that I appreciate. The God that you worship seems a lot more respectable than the one that Allen does. You seem full of love, while.... well, I won't say it. I think you know what I mean.
This is going to be long. and this this is my view, I'm sharing, not debating. It took many years, much praying, much tearing apart and dissecting and much, much, much thought. If you don't see it the way I do, that's totally fine. Just sharing what is inside of me as one human being to another:
I believe in universal reconcilation. I believe this is the only possible outcome which glorifies God. I firmly believe in "Love conquers ALL."
Annihilation does not glorify God. To me, it says that God has failed. That LOVE has failed. That there is something MORE powerful than Love. I don't believe there is anything MORE powerful than Love for GOD IS LOVE.
Those who hate God do not yet know His true character. I hated God for many years.. (and told him so often.) I did not know Him. The God I hated did not exist.
Those who "reject God" do not yet know His true character. The God they reject does not exist.
There is nowhere that anyone of us can go that is "too far" into the darkness that His hand cannot reach. It is impossible. He is the Good Shepherd who is not satisifed with just 99%. He will ALWAYS go after the ONE that is lost.
The ones who went furthest in the darkness... are those who are the MOST in need of HIS LOVE. Those who went the FURTHEST in the darkness are those who will be the MOST HEALED. THIS is the picture of Victory. That LOVE CONQUERS ALL.
Once the POWER of LOVE starts to unfold and starts to really manifest in your heart and in your mind and in your spirit, once you taste it and smell it, hold it in your hands, turn it over and really LOOK AT IT, then you will start to understand how anything less than 100% reconciled is impossible.
It's like a spiritual law that cannot be broken. There is ZERO chance that not all will be reconciled. Otherwise... something IS more powerful than God. God is LOVE.
And that is IMPOSSIBLE.
NOTHING is more powerful than God.
Human beings are all in various levels of darkness. Darkness is ignorance. Nothing more. Just sheer ignorance. We are NOT KNOWING something.
We are all slowly walking OUT of the darkness, and it is all happening as it should. The problem comes when you look at another human being and think to yourself "Well they have no excuse! There are preachers and churches everywhere. Everyone knows who God is."
NO. NO THEY DO NOT.
I had no idea who God was the first 30 years of my life. For all I knew He was some arrogant, psychotic, immature, weak, schizophrenic, homicidal megalomaniac who didn't know the first thing about love but claimed to BE LOVE. That's pretty much what is seemed like a whole heck of a lot of the "God knowers" were basically preaching. Once you looked past the pretty hats and plastered smiles. That was at the core. A madman.
That God does not exist. Except for in the dark recesses of the human mind.
There are many who do not believe in God, yet they LOVE their neighbor as theirselves. These people KNOW God, they just do not yet KNOW that they KNOW Him. But they do know Him. They WILL recognize Him.
There are many who believe in God yet do NOT know His TRUE character. And they will NOT recognize Him.
Hitler, yes... Hitler will be reconciled. If He were annihilated, then Hitler's evil will have proven to be MORE POWERFUL than God's love. Hitler's NON-LOVE will have OVERPOWERED GOD and God will have had no choice but to pretend like He never existed. Well, that doesn't work. Because that only means that it could happen again. That somewhere in the future existence that another Hitler could eventually rise up again. Afterall, that non-love was never conquered!That NON-LOVE was never subdued, overcome! ALL non-love WILL be and MUST be overcome BY LOVE.
He is weaving a tapestry, and everything happening (great and small) are threads in that tapestry. All lives are threads. It is slowly being woven. When this tapestry is finally finished, and we see the big picture, we will all learn and understand just WHAT the darkness was, just WHAT non-love was and we will see it finally for what it was. WEAK. POWERLESS. NOTHING. It was the DESTROYER. It was the ENEMY. and it never stood a chance against the POWER of LOVE.
LOVE CONQUERS ALL. We are in the MIDST of it. So we cannot yet see it. But we WILL. All lives are precious. All lives are part of it. We are ALL brothers and sisters.
Those who lived in the MOST darkness, may end up, in the end teaching us the MOST about the power of love. The power of God.
This is what I see.
I see 100% complete and TOTAL victory.
Anything less... and He wouldn't be a God that I could trust or call "all powerful" or call "LOVE". I don't have to worry about that, though. and for that, I am eternally grateful.
It has changed my entire life and my entire way of viewing our Creator, of viewing others and this world in which we live and our future, together.
peace,
sparrow
P.S. I also have to say that I believe, FIRMLY believe, once we pass from this life in this world, THAT is where the REAL learning will begin, in my eyes. Our lives here, OUR SUFFERINGS here are creating a GLORY that cannot be compared. Think on that. AS A WHOLE And as individuals, but ESPECIALLY AS A WHOLE!!!! OUR (COLLECTIVE) sufferings (as we WALK along in this world being "separated" from God, immersed in this contrast of LOVE and NON-LOVE) these sufferings are creating something for us....
Think about it. Think about what that might be.
What a wondeful witness. Your beautiful posts make my heart sing, sparrow. God bless wonderful sister. I can't rep you yet.
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