A Discussion Between Two Brothers in the LORD about Eternal Torment... (Gospel, coffin)

[Verna Perry]

This is not copywrited...this is an actual conversation between two people I know. Thank you Miss Blue......for allowing me to re-post!

The following is a real live discussion between two brothers in the LORD. Please forgive the length...as I couldn't take anything away from it without disturbing the integrity of the entire discussion. God Bless, and open eyes and hearts to receive Your precious truth...Amen.

There are 2 different letters (#1 and #2). I'll call the brother that firmly believes in Annihilation, brother "A", and the brother who believes in Eternal Torment, brother "B".

The first letter is written by brother A in response to brother B's initial questions to him, and brother A opens the letter saying, "Hello B," and then goes on to quote each question or statement made by brother B, and follows each one with his answer...much like we do here on the forum.

I wanted to share this correspondence with you in hopes that it would answer some of the many questions you might have concerning what Scripture truly says concerning the Word on "Immortality of the Soul" and "Repent or Perish."

#1

Hello B,

B wrote:
>Question? Who are these people? Where do they live? How long do they live?...
>Rev. 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have >right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

A replied:
Of course, these are those who receives eternal life. Here only those who keep God's commandments have right to the tree of life.



B
> Rev. 2215 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and wh**emongers, and >murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

A
These are those who are condemned to destruction. The wrath of God abides on them.



B
>Another question please?
>Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the >righteous into life eternal.

>Jesus is of course talking about the sheep and the goats here. But the words >"everlasting" and "eternal" in the KJV are in Greek one in the same word. Would >Jesus himself lie? Is He not clearly stating that those in punishment and the >righteous (in Christ) live without end? What applies to one must surely apply to >the other. If you twist this, then the whole of s ripture is worthless. You might >just as well write your own book or just toss it altogether, and live according to >the dictates of the flesh.

A
I will give you my understanding of your question: Both the punishment and the reward are eternal. That is why the punishment is called the second death, there is nothing more eternal then death. First punished in the lake of fire then eternal death.

Quote:
"This verse admittedly uses the phrase "eternal punishment," but it is juztaposed against the phrase "eternal life." Death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences. Death on earth is only temporal because everyone will be raised again at the resurrection. Death in the Lake of Fire, however, is eternal; there is no reversing it and no coming back from it." JM

The consequences for both groups are eternal - one eternal life - the other eternal death.

B, if one believes in the immortality of the soul from birth, then the soul can only end up in one of two places. It will live forever in hell or heaven. We agree on that.

However, the assumption that the soul has eternal life from the moment of birth (or before) is directly contrary to many verses which demand that assumption cannot be true. For example:

Matt. 19:16 "And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"

Matt 19:29-30 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children of farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say unto you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life."

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

John 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 10:28 "...and I give eternal life to them, [the sheep] and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Rom. 5:21 "...so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom. 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Gal. 6:8 "For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."

1 John 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

[Verna notes here: I believe, along with ALL! the rest of Scripture as a whole, that this ^ verse, 1 John 3:15, puts another nail in the coffin of the UR AND! the OSAS belief...for sure!!!! God's Word has nailed that coffin SHUT!!!]

1 John 5:11 "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

1 John 5:12 "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

B, every one of those verses demand that eternal life is something not given to all. It is given to specific individuals under certain circumstances.

If even one verse proves that every person does not eternal life from birth then the doctrine of "immortality of the soul" is wrong. If wrong then the doctrine of Eternal Torment for all who do not believe and repent must also be wrong because it is predicated on the assumption that all people live forever.

For example - If no murderer has eternal life abiding in him how could he be ounished for eternity - He does not have eternal life!!!



B
>A, be careful. You are setting yourself against what Yah'shua Himself declared, >after going to great length to illustrate HIS judgement and division upon the >nations.

>Now, you keep asking "how can God", which communicates to me, "help me >understand." So what I'm hearing is that you cannot accept or believe what you >do not understand. To me, that is to bring God down to the level of man. This is >a huge mistake made by millions of people the world over and from the >beginning of time.

A
The Scriptures state that God will judge with righteous judgement according to our deeds.

Rom. 2:5 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God;

Rom 2:6 But who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Rom. 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

A continues...
B, if God were to mete out the same punishment for those who committed few sins and those who lived terrible lives - serial murderers, baby rapers etc. it would not be righteous judgement. If Hitler and the person who never even heard of God both were sentenced to never ending torture there is no righteousness judgement.

Jesus taught us the principle of descending levels of punishment when He said:

Luke 12"46 "The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for Him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

Punishment according to one's deeds is righteous judgement. If all in this parable were punished the same it would not be righteous judgement.



B
>Romans 10:20 "For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernable in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So men are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],

21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honour and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.

22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].

23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellance of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented buy images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.

>So, your concerns about those who heard not the Gospel are clearly addressed here, are they not?

A
B, this passage does not speak of God being righteous to forever torture those of His creation who had never heard the Gospel. However, it does give the reason why God would be righteous to condemn them to death. Mankind has enough information to be punished for things they knew were evil by their own conscience.

That is exactly what Paul meant when he said:

Rom. 2:1 "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgement of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

Rom 2:3 And thnkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgement of God?

The man who says it is wrong to steal from him and then steals from another has condemned himself. Condemned to the righteous judgement of being punished in the Lake of Fire until God's justice is satisfied and then eternal destruction. Some will burn more - some less, if all burned the same it would not be according to the principles Jesus taught.

Brother B - we both know that the mind is like a parachute - they must be open to work. I hope that you will read these verses again with an open mind, one willing to say, "Lord show me if this is true." If a mind is shut then nothing anyone can say...nothing Jesus or the apostles have said...much less what I have said, can penetrate a closed mind.

Neither your mind nor mine.....

A

************************************************** *****************

#2

B replies:
>As I understand it. immortality is different than eternal life.

A
O.K. B O.K. - prove that immortality is different than eternal life. If you cannot prove that immortality is something different than eternal life then what you claim to be your "understanding" is meaningless. It seems to me that without unequivocal proof it is simply your way of avoiding saying "I am wrong."

B, your credibility is in question - if you cannot prove from Scripture that "immortality" means something different from "eternal life" what are we to think? You could start by explaining why people must "put on" immortality if they already have immortality.

Paul wrote:

1 Cor. 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal MUST PUT ON "immortality".

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal SHALL HAVE PUT ON "immortality", then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The Greek word translated "immortality" is G122 deathlessness: - immortality." Deathlessness - we shall never die. B, that sounds like eternal life to me. What do you think? Is deathlessness different than eternal life as you "understand it"...?

A

Quote: (Immortality)

"However, in the entire Bible. there is not a single verse that records anything to the effect that "everyone has eternal life; it's only a matter of where each will spend it>' Yet this is what most of the church today believes.

The sam can be said of words like "immortality". This word appesrs five times in the Bible, and in each one, it is said only of God or of the righteous.

Romans 2:6-7 "God will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who be perserverance in doing good seek glory and honour and immortality, eternal life..."

1 Cor. 15:53 "For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality."

1 Tim 6:15-16 "He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality..."

Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible never says that all people are born with an immortal soul. It says instead that only God has immortality, and He blesses whom He chooses with the gift of eternal life." LM


In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.

[scgraham]

Originally Posted by Verna Perry

Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible never says that all people are born with an immortal soul. It says instead that only God has immortality, and He blesses whom He chooses with the gift of eternal life."

Genesis 2
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Flesh and blood dies and is returned to the dust of the ground, but not souls.

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by scgraham

Genesis 2
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Flesh and blood dies and is returned to the dust of the ground, but not souls.

The dust of the ground makes up the carbon based life form we are. Flesh
The spirit conscience is what makes us aware of 'life'. Spirit
The residual effect of both make up the soul. Like a tape recorder. Soul

Anyway, that is how I understand it.

[svenM]

Originally Posted by scgraham

Genesis 2
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Flesh and blood dies and is returned to the dust of the ground, but not souls.

And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. (Rev. 16:3)

also animals are called living souls and obviously living souls can die

1 Corinthians 15:42-45

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

here the soul (in contrast to the spirit) is equated with what is perishable and weak, "natural body" should be "soulish body" according to the Greek, in biblical language the soul is inferior to the spirit, it is mortal and fleshly (the blood is in the soul Lev. 17:14); please don't claim now that the spirit is immortal, men's spirits are never brought in connection with hades in the bible and immortal souls obviously are not found in the bible but in paganism and Platonism.

[Verna Perry]

Originally Posted by scgraham

Genesis 2
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Flesh and blood dies and is returned to the dust of the ground, but not souls.

OK - you are right scgraham, all of the verses about who has eternal life are trumped by your comments and the verse which says:


Genesis 2:
7 " And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became an immortal living soul."

Oh wait! it does not say "immortal" living soul does it?

[RobinD69]

If one is eternally seperated from God then one is dead and no longer exists, but how long can judgement stretch punishment? Imagine living your entire life over again and knowing the pains of every sin you caused and feeling the pains you caused others. Just a thought.