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Tell me how you chose to be born again, its just as impossible as someone claiming they chose natural birth . So the scripture from John 3 is not a scripture that tells us that Jesus told an individual face to face that he must make a choose or decision.
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Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin
LOL, you're sounding just like Nicodimus....
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
I was thinking the same thing.
It makes me wonder why some people invest so much time in an effort to try to convince as many people as possible that they do not need to approach God, but instead just wait until God approaches them. How can is possibly hurt anyone to pray and ask Christ to come to their life? I don't get it, but maybe that's just me.
Cyber Munchkin, Finn. People such as the one you are replying to just can't understand that God calls man through the Gospel message, and it is to that which man can say yes or no.
When the gospel message is heard, God the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes the gospel understandable to the hearer of the Gospel so that he can understand the issue and make a choice.
2 Thess 2:14 ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.''
[quote=Mike555;17363940]Once again, I will refer readers back to posts #163, 167, 171, and 174.
pcamps claims that I said this.
'that Judas knew God and chose him,'
Here in post #163 is what I actually said concerning Judas Iscariot.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Judas Iscariot spent three years with Jesus but He never believed in Him as Savior. Judas Iscariot died as an unbeliever and is in Hades today.
Matthew 26:24 “The Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him. But woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born”
John 17:12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.”
In John 6:70, Jesus asked the rhetorical question to His twelve apostles, "Jesus answered them, ''Did I myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?''
Luke 22:3 'And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot...' Satan cannot indwell a believer. Influence a believer, yes. But he cannot indwell a believers body. Judas was fully possessed by Satan at the end. John 13:27 'And after the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Jesus therefore said to him, ''What you must do, do quickly.''
John 6:64 ''But there are some of you who do not believe.'' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.'
Now you might ask how Judas could perform miracles if he was an unbeliever. Look at Matthew 7:21 ''Not everyone who says to Me, ''Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22] ''Many will say to Me on that day, ''Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name perform many miracles?'' 23] ''And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'' Jesus will declare as lawless, those who performed miracles in His name. But Jesus will say to them that He never knew them because they never trusted Him for their personal salvation.
Well i apologize for mis quoting you there. Now i have reread that post,you were responding to this quote of mine(see below)*, you still need ears to hear. Jesus never turned up at the door of Judas, even though he was physically right there with Jesus. Being in touching distance of the man christ Jesus, does not mean Jesus showed up at your door.
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Originally Posted by pcamps
*without fail 100% of the time all who Jesus met on a one to one basis believed. When Jesus turns up at our door, there's only one conclusion "Lord i believe". I challenge you to prove this to be wrong
Luke 24 the account of 2 men on the road to Emmaus
Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?” Luke 24:31-32
These 2 men obviously recognized the man Jesus in the flesh, even up to his death on the cross, but here they have no idea who he was, until their eyes were opened.
Jesus told Peter it was by revelation, not flesh and blood that he knew and believed he was the Christ.
You have a choice to be included in God's heaven...choose wisely. Jesus talked about hell more than anything else. Not all people will go to heaven...please do not base your eternity on your opinion...read theBible and seek Him.
Cyber Munchkin, Finn. People such as the one you are replying to just can't understand that God calls man through the Gospel message, and it is to that which man can say yes or no.
When the gospel message is heard, God the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes the gospel understandable to the hearer of the Gospel so that he can understand the issue and make a choice.
2 Thess 2:14 ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.''
In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdomof God unless he is born again. John 3:3
Mike there is a huge discrepancy in your understanding of how a man becomes born again.
So was you born again before you made a choice ?if you was i could acknowledge you were able to understand what the Holy Spirit was revealing to you.You not the scriptures tell us we are only born again by choice,but if you are not born again you cannot see the kingdom of God to make that choice,according to John 3:3.
I hope this exposes the lie that we become born again by choice . The scriptures tell us the natural man cannot understand the things of God, so how on earth can man choose God ?.
This is how a man comes to faith
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 2 Cor4:6
The carnal christian cannot understand this , because he does not understand that God's kingdom is within us, and looks for truth everywhere(even the scriptures) but there, the bottom line is, if you are looking for truth it's right there inside of you.Right in your heart just like 2 Cor 4:6 says.
Only those who place their faith in Christ receive the imputation of God's righteousness by which God declares the one who believes in Christ 'justified.'
now answer this one for me,which i think youve been avoiding from the start of this thread,WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO NEVER HEAR OF CHRIST,OR THOSE BORN INTO DIFFENERNT CULTURES????is it that God just dosent care for these or do they get special treatment???and if they get some special pass into heaven for not knowing then it would have been better for everyone not to know,why would God give one person a better chance than another,if he's meant to be fair and just then everyone should get the same chance in life,which puts into perspective why people suffer,i know the answer and although it dosent come from the bible(although their are hints of it there)it makes perfect sense,this thread is not about that so i wont go off topic here.
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Originally Posted by mike555
No one has been justified at physical birth. In opposition to justification, man is born already born under condemnation (John 3:18).
if this is the case then how come a child WILL enter the kingdom,according to you philosophy,but a man who is really,really good cant and for what reason,FOR BEING BORN???????
mike555 im sure your a good geezer underneath it all,but its clear that you have been fooled into beleiving something,whether its from the bible or not,that just dosent make any sense at all,God is greater than ALL that is and He is PERFECT in every way,therefore he would have created a perfect sytem of life,which He has mind you,you just need get over the old beleifs of man...........
...........ya see if i were able to create a better system of life then that would make me better than God,and thats immpossible,when a politition goes to vote,they tell the people what their intentions are for making life better for everyone,and then people choose according to what they know/think/feel is better for everyone,not just a few,sadly this system dosent realy work because politition can be liars and we have a world where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer,but you get my point,if i could come up with a system that will benefit everyone even the real bad sinners,bye putting laws like karma into place(well that wasnt my idea that was God's)and making it in such a way that in time although it could be eons and eons and eons,but one day,some day- ALL will benefit from life and share gods Love for eternity with everyone in existence,then that would be much better than what your tryin to spit out now wouldnt it,who would vote for eternal hell for everyone,only those who were fooled to beleive that without this docrtine,you'll have to go there,and be sure of tormant,using fear instead of honesty,commpassion,care,tolerance,patience,nobili ty,and the complete opposite of fear which is LOVE.
if God wants us all to be saved then THAT WILL happen,no-one can go against god WILL,He is completley independant,dosent need anything from anyone,but He wants,and what is it he wants,our LOVE and DEVOTION,and that WILL happen too in time for every living entity.why???because HIS WILL,will be done!!!!
This young man came to Jesus face to face believing who Jesus was and asked Jesus how he could inherit eternal life and Jesus gave him the choice to choose..... Jesus or his riches !!!
Matthew 19:16-22
16. And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
17. And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18.Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;
19. HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
20. The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"
21. Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22. But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
There is your scripture that shows one who believed in Jesus.....and Christ giving one the choice to choose
Jesus gave Him the choice to follow Jesus,to become His devotee and in doing so the chap would have gone straight back to the spiritual world with him,dont forget that every time Jesus talked to someone,he was talkin to them personnaly,face to face,if eternal hell was so important,why didnt jesus say to him,''oh yeah and bye the way if you dont beleive in me your goin to burn forever'',infact that would have had to have been the basis of all His teachings,since He was so caring towards others,he wouldnt have wanted them to burn,wouldnt he have warned everyone that He met.
Mike,
I think I see where your confusion is now..
the justification which man receives is by the faith of Jesus Christ, not our own faith. It is the faith of Jesus which has justified all mankind, it is not man's faith which justifies him.
Here's a good link to the use of the words "justified" and "faith" in the NT: BibleGateway.com - Keyword*Search: justified faith
You can see clearly that the faith which is written of is NOT the faith which man is able to scrape up, but Jesus' faith which justifies us all.
And Gal. 3:8--"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." It is GOD's faith which justifies all mankind, not man's feeble attempts at faith which justify him, as though he had anything of himself. All things come from God, including faith.
As for salvation: salvation is brought by God to the sheep, one by one, as He brings them back into the fold. Not all are saved right now, but will come some at the sixth, ninth and last hour.
So we have justification of all mankind, finished 2,000 years ago by Jesus Christ, who is indeed LORD of all.
And we have salvation, which the Lord is revealing to a few precious ones in this life, but who will have all men to be saved eventually.
When Jesus was asked "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved", Jesus did not reply. Yes, don't worry about, I will make sure everyone is saved. No, He said Make every effort to enter through the narrow door
Luke 13:23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
that can be interpreted in many ways,you see this life might not be our only life on the material platform of existence,and reaching the spiritual eternal platform,is very very hard,so Jesus was encouriging them to make the best of this life in spiritual advancement,because it is only with these bodys that we can understand God,the animals cant,but they'll have their chance too someday.
Does not address the question of being willing to suffer eternal torture in Hell to save your children from the same fate as being a greater sacrifice that laying down your life for another. If it is than Jesus was wrong when he said:
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13.
Laying down your life and knowing you are going to hell for it is a greater sacrifice and greater love if ET exists.
Jesus wasn't referring to believers being willing to spend eternity in hell to save someone else, as that is impossible.
And if it were possible, which it is not, I wouldn't take anyones place in the lake of fire. Everyone is responsible to make their own decision as to their eternal future.
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I followed your links and read up on the doctrine of divine decrees and on Robert McLaughlin. Needless to say I disagree with this doctrine and think it is interpreting the scriptures wrongly. I see where a lot of your believes come from but I think this doctrine is wrong. I think that God is in control of his creation at all times and post the following for comment.
Now for maybe the most profound and all-encompassing statements in all Scripture:
"In Whom [GOD] also we have obtained [‘obtained’ not ‘earned’] an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED [our ‘destiny’ was ‘pre’ arranged by God, not us] according to the PURPOSE OF HIM [not the free will, OF US!] Who WORKS ALL THINGS[EVERYthing] AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL [not OUR OWN WILL]" (Eph. 1:11).
Predestination doesn't refer to salvation. It refers to those things to which those who believe in Christ have been predestined to.
It was God's sovereign will to give man, who was created in the image of God, free will. God desires true reciprocal love from His creatures. And only with free will can there be true reciprocal love.
God's will falls into three categories. 1) His directive will, 2) His overruling will, and 3) His permissive will. Man's free will functions under God's permissive will.
Well, at least you took a look at them. If you disagree, then you disagree. You have the right to do so.
And if it were possible, which it is not, I wouldn't take anyones place in the lake of fire. Everyone is responsible to make their own decision as to their eternal future.
I think what sschulz is saying is that if Christ gave his life, then his followers would naturally do the same if necessary.
Your answer is very telling, imo.
I appreciate your honesty though, Mike.
Peace,
brian
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