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Old 01-10-2011, 12:25 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 6,974,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
This to me proves what has ALWAYS been the case even from the start - Christianity is one of many Christianities and the different sides will often claim the other is NOT Christian or cannot be Christian because of one or more technicalities based on a variety of different interpretations of things.
Insane-in-da-membrane (your user name is well chosen),

There is no such thing as a Christian Atheist in my world view. If others can warp, oops, I mean wrap their minds around such a thing - that is their burden. That you use this forum as a place for your entertainment(pleasure), as you have said, has been obvious to me all along. People are "free" to be in bondage (pardon my goofy way of spinning the truth as I see it).

Heartsong
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:52 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
cannot be saved,
Saved from what, exactly?
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:40 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Some might remain there, some might revert back toward a rigid, literalist style Christians (which is hard to do) or some will become agnostics or even atheists.
The problem as I see it is that atheists and fundies can be (notice, I didn't say are) two sides of the same literalist coin.

An atheist reads the story of Jesus' ascension into the clouds and may say "What a bunch of crap! That's impossible" and a fundie reads the same story and may think "Wow - that guy FLEW into outer space!!!"

So (in this cases) neither side gets the meaning of what it means to ascend back to where one came from.

I fundie may say "The bible is the word of God and I believe it's all true".

An atheist may say "The bible is the word of man and I believe it's all false".

Once again, in this case - neither side gets it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
The video is very interesting and the speaker is eloquent in his presentation.
The bit with Jesus flying around in space is funny and makes a great point. The literal sky/clouds thing worked well back when no one knew what was out there.
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:49 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post

There is no such thing as a Christian Atheist in my world view. If others can warp, oops, I mean wrap their minds around such a thing - that is their burden.
Stranger things have happened: About Atheists for Jesus

What would you call it when an atheist behaves more Christ-like that a Christian?
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:06 AM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,809 posts, read 26,452,459 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Saved from what, exactly?
I assume s/he means either Hell or their own inherent flawed and destructive qualities.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:38 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,553 posts, read 7,971,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
The problem as I see it is that atheists and fundies can be (notice, I didn't say are) two sides of the same literalist coin.

An atheist reads the story of Jesus' ascension into the clouds and may say "What a bunch of crap! That's impossible" and a fundie reads the same story and may think "Wow - that guy FLEW into outer space!!!"

So (in this cases) neither side gets the meaning of what it means to ascend back to where one came from.

I fundie may say "The bible is the word of God and I believe it's all true".

An atheist may say "The bible is the word of man and I believe it's all false".

Once again, in this case - neither side gets it.

The bit with Jesus flying around in space is funny and makes a great point. The literal sky/clouds thing worked well back when no one knew what was out there.
You make VERY good points here and I have to agree with you. Often, when I post some of my points and/or objections, I am intentionally focusing on those who adhere to a literal interpretation of the words in the bible. When ALL passages are taken literally, it creates some awkward, and sometimes embarrassing, twists and turns which cannot be explained with a straight face or serious honesty.

That being said, I also wonder (sometimes) if one can spiritualize all the passages in the Bible. One might get away with it in the NT, but it is not so easy in the OT UNLESS one rejects the OT as the mental workings of "our primitive ancestors" as MysticMd is fond of saying.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:45 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,553 posts, read 7,971,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Insane-in-da-membrane (your user name is well chosen),

There is no such thing as a Christian Atheist in my world view. If others can warp, oops, I mean wrap their minds around such a thing - that is their burden. That you use this forum as a place for your entertainment(pleasure), as you have said, has been obvious to me all along. People are "free" to be in bondage (pardon my goofy way of spinning the truth as I see it).

Heartsong
Yes, it is indeed oxymoronic to me. I think this is just another desperate attempt for some people to still cling to any last strings of Christianity without completely breaking from it. Then again, people over the centuries have redefined Christianity over and over again. I guess in these people's case, while they DON'T believe in a central deity, they respect the teachings of Jesus (as just a mere man) and thus follow them and I guess consider themselves "Christians" as such because they adhere to the teachings of Jesus.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:56 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,079 posts, read 20,483,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
The problem as I see it is that atheists and fundies can be (notice, I didn't say are) two sides of the same literalist coin.

An atheist reads the story of Jesus' ascension into the clouds and may say "What a bunch of crap! That's impossible" and a fundie reads the same story and may think "Wow - that guy FLEW into outer space!!!"

So (in this cases) neither side gets the meaning of what it means to ascend back to where one came from.

I fundie may say "The bible is the word of God and I believe it's all true".

An atheist may say "The bible is the word of man and I believe it's all false".

Once again, in this case - neither side gets it.
I can't agree. If the atheist is right in looking at the ascension story and saying it wasn't true, then 'getting the meaning' is irrelevant. It is pointless.

Thom R and I had a chat about this on the religion forum recently. If one takes such a story as literally true then that is one thing. If one takes it as untrue, that is another. If one treats it as metaphorical or allegorical, it is neither, nothing and nowhere and is irrelevant.

Quote:
The bit with Jesus flying around in space is funny and makes a great point. The literal sky/clouds thing worked well back when no one knew what was out there.
I read a book (a very popular and speculative one, but he hit the nail on the head remakably often) which 'explained' the ascension (Acts 1.9-10) where Jesus was lifted up into heaven (a bit of a change from the end of Luke where 'he parted from them') as Jesus going up a hill into a cloud. which isn't very likely and would hardly have seemed miraculous.

I don't care for trying to find 'natural explanations' for miracles. For one thing, it comes close to debunking and close to trying to fool the listener. One theist I knew suggested that Jesus walked on water because he was just near to the shore and it wasn't deep.

That sort of stuff insults the intelligence of both the believer and the skeptic. Either these miracles are true or they are not.
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:30 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,588,709 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
That being said, I also wonder (sometimes) if one can spiritualize all the passages in the Bible.
No, you can't - because it is a bunch of individual writings put together. That's another problem I have with the "magic book" crowd. If the diversity and mystical undertones of the various books can't be perceived then it leads to all the problems we've seen throughout church history.
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:48 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,553 posts, read 7,971,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
No, you can't - because it is a bunch of individual writings put together. That's another problem I have with the "magic book" crowd. If the diversity and mystical undertones of the various books can't be perceived then it leads to all the problems we've seen throughout church history.
I just noticed Arequipa's salient points above, but I want to also address this. You touched on something here that is the often the problem with biblical reading. Folks come to the book believing that every single book from Genesis to Revelation is a coherent thread, inspired by a divine hand to agree with each other at every twist and turn. What is more likely is that while there is cohesion here and there, the books were written by mere men with their various agendas and points of views. It's the vertical reading of the Bible as opposed to the horizontal reading which allows a person to read each book on its OWN merits.
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