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Until Moses, what was considered "the law" did not exist. The 10 commandments were not given until Mt. Sinai. Paul's point was still the curse for disobeying was still in effect prior to Moses. The law of sin and death....Adam's transgression is commonly known as original sin.
What Adam's transgression did was to take away our free will. From Adam on ... death is not an option.
Death is proof that our condition is - we are sinful, not choose to become sinful.
Twin...I just showed you that Judah, Noah, Cain, Abel all knew a law...what is this law? The book of Jubilees records Adam, after his expulsion from the garden, engaging in lengthy, animal sacrifices....for what reason? For whom?
And why? How did he learn these things? Why did God savor the sweet smell in these? If the law of Moses was the "only" law?
The Commandments teach us about our need for Christ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Yes, God has different wills. For example He desired people to obey the 10 Commandments, but no one did, and Jesus desired to gather Israel under his wings, but they refused, and God desires that all men would believe Christ, but many reject Him. God permits us to act against His will, and that equates to free will. It is God's permissive will.
God's 'permissive will.. AKA: God's Grace ... A Holy God cannot abide sin, but, for reasons we are unlikely to understand in this world, God loves and forgives sinners. What an amazing God!
The 10 Commandments teach us that nobody can keep them, thus, ALL need God's Grace and forgiveness through Jesus Christ (Gal. 3).
God knew from the beginning, we could/would not keep His laws ... just as He knew that Adam and Eve would fall from a perfect existence --- to a place where all would require to use their own will to love, obey and submit to God! ....
3.) If a Carnal man hates God, then why would that carnal man ever come near to God?
Well thought out questions! While I don't believe the Bible gives us precise answers to all of them, some light can perhaps be shed on some:
All are 'sinners' and slaves to their own flesh, which makes one "carnal" - until/unless they are 'born again' in God's Holy Spirit as "new creatures in Christ". Thus, we are flesh (carnal), before/without the Holy Spirit
Since Christ "loved us first, before we loved Him" ... and "God demonstrates His love towards His enemies through Christ" (Rom. 5:8), It can probably be said that 'carnal man hates God' ... or at least "that they love darkness more than the light" ... and that ALL were, at one time, carnal, before some were Spiritually reborn.
But, God created all people with an "inborn knowledge of His eternal power and deity" and a 'God-shaped hole in their heart' (desires the flesh can never satisfy). --- Through these, God "draws us unto Himself," even though we have the 'free will' to refuse God's love and grace, and remain in darkness; ... OR stop resisting God as He draws us into His light .. by His Grace and Gift of faith. (Those who refuse, wickedly supress God's inborn truth and are "without excuse" -- But, those who respond, 'do so by God's GIFT of faith ... lest any man should boast". (Rom 1:18-22, Eph 2:8, 2Cor 5:17)
I don't believe scripture fully reveals the precise 'mechanics' of how that works ... or why some respond and others do not --- or why ' some are "given" to Christ by God, and others not').
But, we do know that Christ died for the sin of ALL mankind; ... and, IF we have come to God through faith in Christ, we have been 'given' and have Salvation and eternal life. And, we are reconciled with God, and no longer 'enemies' or fleshly/carnal.
Twin...I just showed you that Judah, Noah, Cain, Abel all knew a law...what is this law? The book of Jubilees records Adam, after his expulsion from the garden, engaging in lengthy, animal sacrifices....for what reason? For whom?
And why? How did he learn these things? Why did God savor the sweet smell in these? If the law of Moses was the "only" law?
i don't know what Jubilees says for I don't concern myself with anything that isn't in the Bible.
How it came to be that the offerings that Cain and Abel preformed is not recorded in the five books of Moses that Jesus refers to those books (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Dueteromony) as "scripture"... I don't know. Being that Jesus doesn't mention other writings as scripture, then we know they aren't inspired and are subject to falsity and or exageration.
However we know that the letter to the Romans is scripture. And in Romans it is very clear that "for before the law was given, sin was in the world. "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command"
Being that Romans is scripture, we know that it is God who determines that prior to Moses, nothing was not considered as "the law".
Satan was made perfect, until iniquity took him over.
Ezekiel 28
[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
[17] Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
[18] Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
[19] All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Check it out and this passage is about the King of Tyre not Satin. A lot of people say because it says you were in eden a garden of God it must be Satin. but the word eden can also be traslated as luxury so he was in luxury in a garden of God. Notice this garden is stone and minerals the Garden of Eden was an agracultural garden. It even says a dirge to the King of Tyrein the verses leading up to these.
Check it out and this passage is about the King of Tyre not Satin. A lot of people say because it says you were in eden a garden of God it must be Satin. but the word eden can also be traslated as luxury so he was in luxury in a garden of God. Notice this garden is stone and minerals the Garden of Eden was an agracultural garden. It even says a dirge to the King of Tyrein the verses leading up to these.
King of Tyre was a an anointed Cherub angel in heaven at the mountain of God? Come on now. It's Satan, and the only reason King Of Tyre is mentioned is because he was under the control of Satan.
Hi Finn. I'm going to post a literal traslation of the verses in question. Notice Verse 14 says " I have provided you a cherub" not you were a cherub. Also when was Satin comsumed to ash( Verse 18?) and is he gone forever( verse 19?) This is the King of Tyre not Satin.
The fall of the King of Tyre
28:11-12 And the word of YHWH (Yahweh) came to me saying, 'Son of man, raise a dirge over the king of Tyre.
Say to him, "The Master YHWH (Yahweh) says this:
You were once a seal-print [exemplar] of perfection,
full of wisdom, perfect in beauty.
13 You came into luxury, a paradise from Elohim,
gems of every kind were your covering,
Sardin, topaz, diamond, chrysolite, onyx,
jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, emerald.
Your jingling beads were of gold,
and the spangles you wore were made for
you on the day of your birth.
14 I had provided you with a guardian cherub;
you were in the set-apart mountain of Elohim,
and you walked proudly among the stones that flashed with fire.
15 You were blameless in all your ways
from the day of your birth until iniquity came to light.
16 Your busy trading has filled you with lawlessness and sin,
so I thrust you down from the mountain of Elohim,
and the guardian cherub banished [or destroyed] you from
among the stones that flashed like fire.
17 Your heart has made you arrogant
because of your beauty.
You have corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
I have thrown you to the ground;
I have made you a spectacle for other kings.
18 So great was your sin in your wicked trading,
that you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I kindled a fire within you, to consume you.
I left you as ashes on the ground for all to see.
19 Of the nations, all who know you were aghast;
you became waste, gone forever."'
I've been reading this thread and I have to say I believe "free will" is an illusion that we think we have but we don't.
Some have said we have "limited free will". That is a contradiction in itself. Free will means no limits placed on your will ,but then there are limits placed on your will--HUH.
The carnel heart wants free will and thinks we have it but since God know everything, including the choices we are going to make we could make no other.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phil 2:13
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Ephesians 1:11)
Free will is an illusion folks it is not what we have ,because ALL our choices are caused by something. A caused choice is not a free choice.
Now the part that really hurts the head, that even though they are caused choices they are our choices, so we are accountable because that is the choice we wanted to make.
God saw the end before the beginning ,meaning he knows all the choices because he has planned and created the enviroment that causes the choices he already knows we will make.
i don't know what Jubilees says for I don't concern myself with anything that isn't in the Bible.
How it came to be that the offerings that Cain and Abel preformed is not recorded in the five books of Moses that Jesus refers to those books (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Dueteromony) as "scripture"... I don't know. Being that Jesus doesn't mention other writings as scripture, then we know they aren't inspired and are subject to falsity and or exageration.
However we know that the letter to the Romans is scripture. And in Romans it is very clear that "for before the law was given, sin was in the world. "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command"
Being that Romans is scripture, we know that it is God who determines that prior to Moses, nothing was not considered as "the law".
Twin...when Paul and Peter referred to the Holy Scripture(s) in several texts, which ones do you think they might be referring to? Did you know that many of the "extra canonical" texts were discarded by the Jews after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, because they specifically pointed to Christ and His prophecies of the coming judgment on them came to pass, along with the LXX, that was revised because of the same reason? Our early church fathers such as Constantine group of clergymen, put their faith in the "masoretic"...post 70 AD revision, and contemporary Jewish works and letters that were "kept" without realizing that they did this, negating great scriptures such as Jubilees and the Enoch(s), that were repeatedly quoted in the New Testament. Thank Godfor the ROman Catholic church that kept these books, or else we would be in the dark on themes such as this one, relying only on the canon for clarification...like the book of Jasper..which is mentioned in the scriptures, but not part of the canon. For example...the 1000 years in Revelation 20, 2 Peter 3, are clearly defined in Jubilees and the Epistle of Barnabas....anyway..I have rambled enough. Please, if you can, step out of the canon, and see for yourself. I would gladly provide some studies if you need. Peace to you.
Let me see.....free will. Well all your characteristics, you did not choose. Race, where born, when, ethnic, gender, mental ability, even being human, etc. You had no choice, it happened to you. Chance, strength of sperm, a race to the egg out of a million entries, god's direction? What ever, you as sperm or egg was incomplete.
Now it seems as studies show, and children found raised with nearly no social contact and being mere animals, what ever your accidental characteristics (those above), the social exerts a very strong influence. After all, one does not know anything without the social influence in a reflective way. And in all this, the great Palin is going to take yours and god's free will, even theoretically is a laugh.
The truth is, your free will is actually a social construct, an idea. And this modern version of it, your version, is actually a version (free will is not viewed the same by all people at all historical times) to manage modern beings. The modern society depends on you being able to wash your face yourself, get yourself to work, vote for the slobs that rule over you, function within your "free" church, tend the machine, etc-in other words its a management tool that gets the government a cheap form of rule by not needing an organization to follow you around-coupled with an aesthetic ethics its very powerful=guilt runs the world, ask the early Jews, modernity could not exist without it.
The terms "free will" is, as all language, a metaphor that is structured up and applied to our behavior, Palin may be more correct, who is to say in any honest way? Therefore, it is fluid and not absolute as a concept. Live is always a mystery.
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The Commandments teach us about our need for Christ
