Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No and No again. I have already addressed this on this thread. The title 'angel of the Lord' is a designation for the pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. One manifestion of Jesus as the 'angel of the Lord was when He appeared to Moses in the burning bush. That was God - I AM WHO I AM - Jesus Christ - Yahweh.
Mike, where in the Hebrew Bible Jesus is explicitly called the 'Angel' of the LORD?
I posted this in my first post, but you must have missed it.One is singular, one is plural. I left the denotation free of underlining in case that interferes with your being able to see the difference.
I encourage you, not to look up translations of the Septuagint, which have been influenced, but the original. That is also why I encouraged you to find someone who knows what they are talking about here.
As for your Revelation reference, you actually do not understand that this makes my point. You can't seem to see where the designation of a name is different from an assignment. King of KINGS.
Until you understand linguistics for yourself, and how they apply, you will only sound ignorant to those with this understanding. You might impress those who share your view, with all your cut and pastes, but you don't understand it at all.
Please put in the time to know what you are trying to present here. I also encourage you to understand what Nominative and Genitive mean and how they apply.
Simply open your eyes and see. There were three men who appeared to Abraham (Gen 18:2). Two of them were angels. One of them was Jesus Christ in a pre-incarnate appearance. This is called a Theophany. In Gen 18:22 the two angels departed to go to Sodom. The LORD remained with Abraham and Abraham conversed with the LORD inquiring if the LORD would destroy Sodom if even ten righteous men could be found. Finally the LORD departed from Abraham (Gen 18:33).
Once again κύριος - Kurios is singular, and not plural.
Here again, and this is not from the Septuagint, it is Hebrew to English is Gen 19:24 Genesis 19:24 Biblos Interlinear Bible Now because you simply refuse to understand that Jesus Christ is God, you allege that the translators have been influenced and don't know what they are doing. Others on this forum have presented themselves as experts in the Greek or Hebrew and on that basis and without an understanding of theology have argued for things which are completely unscriptural.
The simple and correct translation of Gen 19:24 into English is 'Then the LORD (Yah-weh) rained on Sodom and Gommorah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Yah-weh) out of heaven.
And I too posted some links in an earlier post pertaining to the meaning of kurios. You can go back and view them.
To reject what the Scriptures say about the tri-unity of God, and that Jesus Christ is God, and that Jesus Christ made pre-incarnate appearances in the Old Testament is like going outside and looking at the blue sky and refusing to believe that it is blue.
NO,The Angel of the Lord (or the Angel of God) is one of many terms in the Hebrew Bible (also: Old Testament) used for an angel. The Biblical name for angel, מלאך mal'ach, which translates simply as "messenger," obtained the further signification of "angel" only through the addition of God's name, as ("angel of the Lord," or "angel of God", Zech. 12:8).
What you said above is just your opinion.
No it is not my opinon. The title 'angel of the LORD' is unique to Jesus Christ in what is known as a Theophany - a pre-incarnate appearance of the LORD.
Mike, its been fun, but this is why I don't get into these subjects. Personal theology gets in the way.
It really would benefit you to study: Nominative, Dative, Accusative, Genitive, and Vocative designations. There are also singular, plural, and dual inflections.
I would stick to subjects based on reasoning alone until you have a grasp of linguistics.
Take care, Driftwood.
You lack knowledge of fundamental theology, and perhaps are antagonistic toward it, and therefore reject the reality of the triune nature of God. That is your choice, and you have the right to make that choice.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-08-2011 at 02:06 PM..
Simply open your eyes and see. There were three men who appeared to Abraham (Gen 18:2). Two of them were angels. One of them was Jesus Christ in a pre-incarnate appearance. This is called a Theophany. In Gen 18:22 the two angels departed to go to Sodom. The LORD remained with Abraham and Abraham conversed with the LORD inquiring if the LORD would destroy Sodom if even ten righteous men could be found. Finally the LORD departed from Abraham (Gen 18:33).
Then, as scripture says, Moses and John were wrong when they said "no man has seen God, or no man can see him and yet live.
I'm not concerned about mans terminology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
To reject what the Scriptures say about the tri-unity of God, and that Jesus Christ is God, and that Jesus Christ made pre-incarnate appearances in the Old Testament is like going outside and looking at the blue sky and refusing to believe that it is blue.
Man made theology. If it were so, then Jesus would have taught it.
Kidsinamerica made a valid point as well, but you are too blinded by man made teachings to realize it.
So Jesus was a man, a god, and an angel??? Is that what he said?
No. That is not what I said. Jesus Christ has always been God, co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Since His incarnation Jesus Christ is also man. He is the God-Man. The unique Person of the universe. Not half god and half man, but eternal and infinite God and true humanity in one person. Jesus Christ is in hypostatic union. His deity is separate and distinct from His humanity with no mixing of divine and human attributes.
In the Old Testament, before His incarnation, Jesus Christ appeared in what is called a Theophany- a manifestation of deity in some form - a man, a burning bush, a cloud, a pillar of fire,etc... Before His incarnation Jesus appeared in these forms and as such, is referred to as the 'angel of the LORD.'
That does not mean that Jesus was a real angel. It is simply a title which belonged to Jesus Christ in the Old Testament related to His pre-incarnate appearances.
Mike, where in the Hebrew Bible Jesus is explicitly called the 'Angel' of the LORD?
You won't find such a passage. The fact that Jesus is the angel of the LORD in the Old Testament is seen from comparing Scripture with Scripture. Jesus Christ has always been the revealed Person of the Godhead.
Do some research on the terms 'Theophany' and 'angel of the LORD.'
No. That is not what I said. Jesus Christ has always been God, co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Since His incarnation Jesus Christ is also man. He is the God-Man. The unique Person of the universe. Not half god and half man, but eternal and infinite God and true humanity in one person. Jesus Christ is in hypostatic union. His deity is separate and distinct from His humanity with no mixing of divine and human attributes.
In the Old Testament, before His incarnation, Jesus Christ appeared in what is called a Theophany- a manifestation of deity in some form - a man, a burning bush, a cloud, a pillar of fire,etc... Before His incarnation Jesus appeared in these forms and as such, is referred to as the 'angel of the LORD.'
That does not mean that Jesus was a real angel. It is simply a title which belonged to Jesus Christ in the Old Testament related to His pre-incarnate appearances.
Theophany and hypo-static union are words needed to promote men's teachings.
You don't need them to understand scripture. I think that must be what is confusing you.
Remember these words:
Ex. 33:20 "But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
John 1:18 "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him"
They said GOD. Plain and simple. That is why you should be a little larger on ears, and smaller on speech.
BTW, the bible does not say there are two, three, four, or more persons in a GODHEAD.
To reject what the Scriptures say about the tri-unity of God, and that Jesus Christ is God, and that Jesus Christ made pre-incarnate appearances in the Old Testament is like going outside and looking at the blue sky and refusing to believe that it is blue.
No it's not. If I see the sky is blue, I know it. No book can prove it better than I can see it. My seeing the sky, and knowing its color, doesn't require all sorts of assumptions of other people's statements. Whether or not they are even actual eyewitnesses.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
