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I was directed to this post in the thread "The Plurality of God is easily seen in the Scriptures"
According to the above reasoning, the angel of Yahweh that went before Israel is the rock that Paul speaks as, not as going before Israel, but which "follows" Israel. I personally do not believe that Jesus was the "angel of Yahweh" who went before Israel, but he most certainly could have been. Even assuming that this is so, it does not follow that the angel of Yahweh, who spoke for Yahweh, is a person of Yahweh. It does not follow that that the angel of Yahweh, who spoke for Yahweh, was actually Yahweh whom the angel spoke for. It is further being imagined, assumed, added to, and read into the scriptures, that this angel of Yahweh is uncreated.
Jesus Christ is always the revealed Person of the Godhead. And as Exodus chapter 3 , the angel of the Lord is Yah-weh. The angel of the LORD identifies Himself as 'I AM WHO I AM,' and as the Father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
In Ex 13:21,22 The angel of the Lord is called the LORD, and in Ex 14:19 He is called the angel of the LORD. 'And the angel of the LORD, who had been going before the camp of Israel; moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them.
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By the way, there are trinitarians that claim that there is only one angel of Yahweh, whom they claim is the Son of God. We do not actually know that there is only one angel of Yahweh, as both the Hebrew and the Greek are indefinite, so that it could be rendered “an angel of Yahweh”. In Luke 1:11,19,26 an angel of Yahweh is identified as Gabriel. If there is only one “angel of Yahweh”, then the angel is thus identified as Gabriel, not Jesus.
The title 'angel of the LORD' refers to the preincarnate appearances of Jesus Christ. It does not refer to a created angel.
As for the way definiteness is expressed in the Greek, that is explained at the bottom of the following link which is about the angel of the LORD. The Angel of the Lord
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An angel of Yahweh who speaks for Yahweh is often referred to as Yahweh. Does this mean that Yahweh exists as two different persons of Himself? Indeed, such has to imagined, assumed, and added to the scriptures. It is true that certain scriptures seem to imply that Yahweh was speaking directly to humans, but a comparison of scriptures shows that Yahweh was actually speaking through or by means of his angel(s). — Exodus 3:2-4 [see Acts 7:30,35; Galatians 3:19]; Genesis 16:7-11,13; 22:1,11,12,15-18.
And yet, while in the context of the scriptures related to "angel of Yahweh", we have no direct answer to this, other statements, such as in Acts 7:30,35 and Galatians 3:19 provide the answer. Trinitarians assume that Yahweh was an angel and yet that the angel was the angel — messenger “of” Yahweh, sent by Yahweh, both being two persons of the same Yahweh. The whole idea of two persons in one Yahweh has to imagined, assumed, added to, and read into any reference to any angel of Yahweh.
No, trinitarians do not assume that Yah-weh was an angel. The angel of the LORD is a title given to Jesus Christ in His preincarate appearances. The angel of the LORD does not refer to a created angel.
I have already shown you that in Exodus chapter 3 the angel of the LORD is Yah-weh Himself. Not a created angel.
No disrespect to Paul and Moses, two great men of faith. However, God almighty did not stop his business with Paul, neither did he stop with Moses, as you have seen in scripture. He has continued and all things are now fulfilled. The kingdom of God on earth has been established. Paul foresaw this kingdom and ditto other great men of God. Today, I have seen the kingdom and beheld HIM face to face. He is the one to teach and unless he reveals, you cannot understand. Paul said a time will come when he will know openly. That time is now.
No, the kingdom of God on earth has NOT been established and won't be until the Lord returns at the end of the tribulation. But that is off topic.
And no, you have never beheld Jesus face to face.
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Coming to Moses write up on creation, I still maintain to you before God and man, that the account has so many missing elements.
Creation is discussed in a number of passages. God has revealed in those passages what He has chosen to reveal about the creation.
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However, I would not want this to be a reason for difference between us. Your main topic on the trinity is very correct. However, The Father is greater than the son. The son is also God, but the son was begotten. I gave you the analogy of gold-if you melt part of it, it is still gold, though one may weigh smaller. There are no two meanings of begotten. It means exactly that... the first created.
No the Father is not greater than the deity of Christ. When Jesus said the Father is greater than I, He was speaking from the standpoint of His humanity. Not from His deity.
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On the contrary, it reveals the accurate knowledge of the truth. Rapture is a false teaching of man. It is a corruption of the true teaching of God. And really it makes no sense to expect to dodge tribulation on earth when Christ passed through tribulation. How will you be promoted to the kingdom of God? Because Jesus says very clearly that those who walk with him in white are those who have passed through tribulation and have washed their robe in the blood of the lamb. If you do not pass through tribulation to the kingdom, know that you are heading for destruction.
Why would a guy who promised his Father's kingdom on earth be interested in moving you to the 'cloud'? It is a misunderstanding of scripture. Does it sound familiar? The Jews are till today awaitning the first coming of the Messiah. You and I know he has come but they killed him, but they are genuinely waiting....
No, the rapture is not a false teaching of man. The church has no part of the tribulation. The fact that you equate the rapture with being moved to a cloud shows that you have no understanding of what the rapture is. As Revelation 19:7-8 show, the entire raptured church is in heaven during the tribulatioin and has made herself ready for the marriage of the Lamb by virtue of having been evaluated at the judgment seat of Christ which takes place immediately following the rapture. And as Revelation 19:11-14 show, the church returns to the earth with Jesus at the end of the tribulation. But again, this is off topic.
I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. — 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.
It is being imagined, assumed, and argued that the rock that "followed" Israel, as spoken of in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4, is proof that Jesus is the "angel of Yahweh" who "went before" Israel as described in Exodus 14:19. It is further being assumed that the angel of Yahweh of Exodus 14:19 is actually the Most High Himself, and Exodus 31:21 is used as an alleged support of that claim. However, that is not all, it is further being imagined, assumed, added to, and read into these scriptures that this means that the angel of Yahweh is a separate distinct person of Yahweh.
The spiritual “rock” was Christ, that is, that rock that Yahweh had provided by means of his spirit is a type of Jesus. There is nothing in this that means that Jesus “was” Yahweh. The food — the manna — and drink — the water — provided by Yahweh through his holy spirit is a type of the food and drink provided through Jesus. Jesus himself tells us this. (John 6:48-58) There is nothing in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 that proves that Jesus is Yahweh who provided the rock, and the manna, and the drink through the rock.
Let us look at 1 Corinthians 10:4 and its context to see exactly what is being spoken of here.
1 Corinthians 10:1
ou thelw gar humas agnoein adelphoi hoti
NOT I AM WILLING FOR YOU TO BE IGNORANT, BROTHERS, THAT
3756 2309 1063 4771_7 0050 0080 3754
hoi pateres heemwn pantes hupo teen nepheleen
THE FATHERS OF US ALL (ONES) UNDER THE CLOUD
3588 3962 1473_8 3956 5259_5 3588 3507
eesan kai pantes dia tees thalassees
THEY WERE AND ALL (ONES) THROUGH THE SEA
1511_3 2532 3956 1223 3588 2281
dieelthon
THEY WENT THROUGH,
1330
1 Corinthians 10:2
kai pantes eis ton mwuseen ebaptisanto en tee
AND ALL (ONES) INTO THE MOSES THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE
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nephelee kai en tee thalassee
CLOUD AND IN THE SEA,
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1 Corinthians 10:3
kai pantes to auto pneumatikon brwma ephagon
AND ALL (ONES) THE VERY SPIRITUAL THING EATEN THEY ATE
2532 3956 3588 0846_9 4152 1033 2068
0846_98
1 Corinthians 10:4
kai pantes to auto pneumatikon epion poma
AND ALL (ONES) THE VERY SPIRITUAL THEY DRANK DRINK,
2532 3956 3588 0846_9 4152 4095 4188
0846_98
epinon gar ek pneumatikees akolouthousees
THEY WERE DRINKING FOR OUT OF SPIRITUAL FOLLOWING*
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petras hee petra de een ho christos
ROCK MASS, THE ROCK MASS BUT WAS THE CHRIST;
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1 Corinthians 10:5
all ouk en tois pleiosin autwn eeudokeesen ho
BUT NOT IN THE MORE (ONES) OF THEM THOUGHT WELL THE
0235 3756 1722 3588 4119 0846_92 2106 3588
theos katestrwtheesan gar en tee ereemw
GOD, THEY WERE STREWN DOWN FOR IN THE DESOLATE [PLACE].
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1 Corinthians 10:6
tauta de tupoi heemwn egeneetheesan eis to
THESE (THINGS) BUT TYPES OF US THEY OCCURRED, INTO THE
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mee einai heemas epithumeetas kakwn kathws
NOT TO BE US DESIRERS OF BAD (THINGS), ACCORDING AS
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kakeinoi epethumeesan
ALSO THOSE DESIRED.
2548 1937 — Westcott & Hort Interlinear.
========
*Greek, Strong’s #190 = Akoloutheo: (1) to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him (2) to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple; side with his party Akoloutheo - Greek Lexicon
The account of the rock referred to is recorded in the Old Testament in Exodus 17. It should become apparent that the rock referred to is the one which Moses struck and from which water issued forth. Many wish to turn what Paul said around to make it appear that Jesus “was” the rock. Actually, Paul refers to the rock that Moses struck, saying, that “rock was Christ,” — he did not say that Jesus “was” that rock. In doing so, he designates the “rock” that Moses struck as a “type,” as he mentions in verse 6, of Jesus.
Nor did Paul say: Christ is [present tense] that rock, as many seem to assume. What Paul actually said was “that rock was [past tense] Christ,” that rock from which the Israelites drank did physically exist in the past and it was [represented, signified] Christ, who was to come afterwards as a spiritual rock. Of course, Jesus never was a literal “rock” — Paul is speaking figuratively, typically. Paul is here drawing an illustration of how the “rock” that the Israelites drank from spiritually represents, prefigures, Jesus. (1 Corinthians 10:6,11) In verse 3 Paul tells us of the spiritual food which the Israelites ate, that is, the manna, food which was provided by means of God’s spirit. (Jesus had earlier referred to this manna as representing himself. — John 6:31-58) Then Paul tells of a spiritual rock — a miraculous rock provided by Yahweh through his spirit — from which they drank. (Nehemiah 9:15; Psalm 78) The rock and its water, provided spiritually by Yahweh, Paul tells us figuratively foreshadows the spiritual rock who followed them, that is, who came later. — 1 Corinthians 10:3,4.
In other words, Paul is giving examples [Greek transliteration: tupoi, types] in the history of the nation of Israel that are a benefit to the Christian, as shown in verse 6. There is the type, the foreshadow, and that which followed the type, that is the reality. The type, or shadow, comes before the reality. The spiritual rock that followed the type that preceded it was Christ.
Of course the rock that Moses struck was a type of Christ. Nothing to the contrary was ever said.
Jesus Christ is always the revealed Person of the Godhead. As is seen in Exodus chapter 3, the angel of the LORD who appeared to Moses in the burning bush is Yah-weh Himself. The angel of the LORD is 'I AM WHO I AM.' The angel of the LORD is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I think that I have already brought this to your attention.
And since the angel of the LORD is always Jesus Chrit in a preincarnate appearance, it is Jesus Christ who was the cloud which led Israel by day and the pillar of fire by night.
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It was Moses, who at the beginning of his experience as a servant of Yahweh was so very meek, so very humble, but who, at the conclusion of his career, was hindered from entering the promised land as a punishment for spiritual pride or self-assurance, when he should have given Yahweh the glory. Let us note the circumstances: Moses, as Yahweh’s special servant, had led Israel out of Egypt across the Red Sea into the wilderness, en route for Canaan. He performed, by Yahweh’s direction, several miracles on the journey. One of them was the smiting of the rock when the people were famished for water. God directed him to smite the rock; and from that rock flowed an abundant stream of water for the refreshment of the people.
The people, however, were not appreciative, and showed great lack of faith in God as well as Moses. (Exodus 32) Thus, Paul says: “with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.” — 1 Corinthians 10:5, World English Bible translation — WEB.
These things, Paul says, are “types” [tupoi] for us, for the Christian who is following Christ, that we may not desire what is bad. — 1 Corinthians 10:6.
Thus, according to the Bible, that rock from which water flowed was a picture — a type — of Christ. (1 Corinthians 10:4.) It was by Yahweh’s arrangement that this “rock” was smitten, that the water of life might flow from Jesus for all of Adam’s race who would become Israelites indeed and come out of Egypt — out of the world — out of sin — out of the kingdom of the Adversary into obedience and fellowship with Yahweh.
Forty years after this time of the smiting of the rock, when Israel had been journeying to and fro, waiting for the time to come that they might be permitted to enter Canaan, their wandering led again into this district, so barren and devoid of water. The people cried to Moses and Moses cried to Yahweh on their behalf as to what should be done. Yahweh’s answer was that Moses should speak to the rock which previously he had smitten, and that water would come forth. But during these forty years in which Moses had dealt with the Israelites as a father with his children, he had naturally gained a great deal of self-assurance. He could hardly pass through such experiences and still be the meekest man in all the earth. So now, neglecting the command of Yahweh, Moses went to the rock and smote it a second time with his rod, shouting to the people: “Ye rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” (Numbers 20:1-12) Moses was taking the glory to himself instead of ascribing it all to Yahweh. Soon Moses realized the great mistake he had made. While many may consider this a small mistake, yet Yahweh on this account denied him the privilege of going into the land of Canaan, granting him instead merely the opportunity of seeing it from across the River Jordan, and burying him there.
There is nothing in any of this to lead us to the conclusion that this rock was an angel of Yahweh, as some have claimed. Paul says this rock followed the Israelites, which many have evidently assumed refers to the angel of Yahweh following the Israelites around in the wilderness. In reality there is nothing at all in the scriptures about an angel of Yahweh following the Israelites.
I will next, God willing, address in another post the comparison of Exodus 14:19 with Exodus 31:21.
Angel of the LORD identified as Yah-weh: Gen 16:7-13; 22:11-18; 31:11-13; 48:15,16; Ex 3 with Acts 7:30-35; Ex 13:21; 14:19; Judges 6:11-23; 13:9-20.
Angel of the LORD distinquished from Yah-weh: Gen 24:7; 24:40; Ex 23:20; 32:34; 1 Chron 21:15-18; Isa 63:9; Zech 1:12,13.
The angel of the LORD is the Second Person of the Trinity, visible God. After His incarnation, the Angel of the LORD no longer appears. John 1:18; 6:46, 1 Tim 6:15,16; 1 John 4:12.
All three Persons of the Godhead are called Yah-weh. Therefore, the angel of the LORD is Yah-weh and also distinquished from Yah-weh, because God the Father is Yah-weh and Jesus Christ is Yah-weh.
Here we find a lot more of how the trinitarian uses the spirit of human imagination in order to imagine, form assumptions based on what is imagined,a and then add those assumptions to, and read those assumptions into, the scriptures.
Exodus 3:2 The angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exodus 3:3 Moses said, I will turn aside now, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Exodus 3:4 When Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the midst of the bush, and said, "Moses! Moses!" He said, "Here I am."
Exodus 3:5 He said, "Don't come close. Take off your sandals from off your feet, for the place you are standing on is holy ground."
Exodus 3:6 Moreover he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."
In verse 2, we do read that the angel of Yahweh appeared to Moses. Whether in verses 4 through 6, it was actually the Yahweh speaking, or if Yahweh was speaking through His angel, is not clear. Either way, it does not mean that Yahweh's angel is a person of Yahweh Himself.
It is absolutely clear. The angel of the LORD in Ex 3:2 is 'I AM WHO I AM' in Ex 3:14.
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I have no idea why anyone would say, however, that an angel of Yahweh would not say tell Moses to take of his sandals because he was only holy ground. I don't know of anything in the Bible would mean that an angel of Yahweh could not convey such a message as a messenger of Yahweh.
No created angel would declare the ground to be holy because he was there and order someone to take off their sandals. That would be tantamount to accepting worship.
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The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob identified himself as EHYEH ASHER EHYEH, often rendered as I am who/that I am. Jesus never once claimed to be EHYEH.
Jesus identified Himself as I AM WHO I AM IN Exodus 3:14.
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Jesus' declaration of his existence before Abraham in John 8:58 does not mean that Jesus was claiming to be EHYEH of Exodus 3:14,15. The Jews had for some time been seeking an excuse, a legal cause, to kill Jesus. It is but an assumption to think that Jesus claimed that his name was EHYEH in John 8:58.
It means precisely that He was stating that He is I AM THAT I AM. John 10:33 states that the Jews were attempting to stone Jesus because they knew that Jesus was making Himself to be God.
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Jesus was simply expressing his existence in a past tense context, that is, before Abraham was, before Abraham existed. In doing so, he used what is called by Koine Greek scholars as “the historical present.” The historical present uses a form of the present tense in a past tense context to express a past tense situation. The only place we know of where such usage in the Bible is questioned is in John 8:58, where trinitarians and some others would like it to mean there the holy name, or else that Jesus was expressing his past eternality. In all other cases that I know of, except for a few “literal” translations, translators will render the historical present usage in the Bible by using a form of the past tense in English. Only the most literal translations will use the present tense in translating the historical present usage. For instance, in Matthew 3:1, we read: “In those days, John the Baptizer came.” (World English) The word translated “came” here is actually a present tense form. Young’s Literal renders it with the archaic present tense, “cometh.” “And in those days cometh John the Baptist.” However, most translators, recognizing this as a “historical present” usage of the koine Greek, will render the word with an English past tense form.
Not all translators render John 8:58 with the present tense form of “I am.” Many do render Jesus’ words with a past tense form in English:
The New Testament Or Rather The New Covenant – S.Sharpe: “I was before Abraham”.
A Bible, A New Translation – J.Moffatt: “I existed before Abraham was born”
The New Testament in the Language of the Day – W.G.Beck: “I was before Abraham”
The Simple English Bible: “I was alive before Abraham was born”
The Twentieth Century New Testament: “before Abraham existed I was”
The New Testament in the Language of the People – C.B.Williams: “I existed before Abraham was born”
The Bible – An American Translation – E.Goodspeed: “I existed”
The Unvarnished New Testament – A.Gaus: “I have already been”
The Authentic New Testament – H.J.Schonfield: “I existed”
The Complete Gospels – R.J.Miller (Editor): “I existed”
These, and a few other translators and Greek scholars, do give recognition to the “historical past” usage of Jesus in John 8:58. In reality, it is only for the purpose of promoting the doctrine that Jesus was saying that he was Yahweh that translators have made the claim that in John 8:58, the historical present does not apply. Thus their argument becomes circular in nature when they use John 8:58 as proof that Jesus is Yahweh.
'I am is ego eimi and is Present Active Indicative. Eimi means ' I am,' 'I exist.'
Again, the Jews were attempting to stone Jesus because they knew that He was claiming to be God. John 10:33 'The Jews answered Him, ''For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, a mere man, make Yourself out to be God.'
Jesus Christ is always the revealed Person of the Godhead. And as Exodus chapter 3 , the angel of the Lord is Yah-weh. The angel of the LORD identifies Himself as 'I AM WHO I AM,' and as the Father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
In Ex 13:21,22 The angel of the Lord is called the LORD, and in Ex 14:19 He is called the angel of the LORD. 'And the angel of the LORD, who had been going before the camp of Israel; moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them.
There are people in my church who believe that THE Angel of YHWH was an ordinary Angel of God, no different from Gabriel.
This is based on Stephen's speach (and other references)
Acts 7:29At this retort Moses fled and became an exile in the land of Midian, where he became the father of two sons. 30"Now when forty years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fire in a bush.
Heb. 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,..
Galatians 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
The argument that even some Trinitarians make is that the angel was granted some special powers by God and could bear His name without being God himself. Using same arguments, non-Trinitarians argue that Jesus was given the ability by God to speak on God's behalf and carry His name.
I personally don't buy it, but this is the argument I 've encountered.
In all of the studies I have done over the years, I have come to the same conclusion. Our God is not the author of confusion, yet, it is only through his Holy Spirit that we see what is so clear! There is nothing Plural in this verse. Please see the follwing in the Hebrew interlinear:
Some of my favorite scriptures below:
God himself says to the Son in Heb.1:10" And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works ofthine hands... and they shall be changed: but thou art the same,(quote of Psalm 102:25)
Mal.3:6 " I the Lord do not change.
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Malachi 2:10Have we not all one father? has not one God created us?
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Revelation 4:11 You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for you have created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created.
Colossians 1:16 For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. "2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made
Isaiah 44:24 Thus said the LORD, your redeemer, and he that formed you from the womb, I am the LORD that makes all things; that stretches forth the heavens alone; that spreads abroad the earth by myself;
How can one dispute the amazing power of the cross? God Alone created all things alone and by himself, yet through Jesus..This is because they are ONE!
NO CREATURE COULD FULFILL THE PERFECT LAW GOD CREATED. ONLY GOD HIMSELF WOULD FULFILL IT, AND TAKE ITS PENALTIES ONTO HIMSELF.
GOD IS THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA WHY AND HOW? BECAUSE HE IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND IS ALSO THE THE SLAVE WHO DIED A DEATH THAT WAS 100% NOT DESERVED WHILE BEING PERFECT (AND ALMIGHTY) AND TAKING ON THE SINS OF THE WORLD!!!!!
OUR GOD HAS WALKED WITH US. HE HAS FELT THE SAND UNDER HIS FEET AND THE SCORCH OF THE SUN ON HIS BACK. HE HAS CRIED TEARS, AND FELT PAIN WHEN HE WAS BEATEN FOR OUR SAKE. OUR GOD IS PRE-EMINENT!!! ALL PRAISE BE TO OUR AWESOME GOD!
Last edited by 1greatevent; 06-05-2012 at 07:41 PM..
Reason: typos
As Ive stated before, every scripture a trinitarian can try to claim "trinity" based, I can show otherwise.
I should know better than to get into this, but I will clear up your misconception through etymology, and scriptural proofs on reasoning.
I am only addressing this one, as it will be more than I really want to get into anyway. Your Zechariah application has too many holes in it for me to devote the time to.
This is the Septuagints translation of Gen. 19:24: και κυριος εβρεξεν επι σοδομα και γομορρα θειον και πυρ παρα κυριου εκ του ουρανου
The first underlined word is kurious or κύριος (Lords)
The second underlined word is kurio or κυρίου (Lord)-This is the genitive singular form of kurious.
Hebrew makes the distinction as well: וַֽיהוָ֗ה vs. יְהוָ֖ה
In other words: The Lord(s) (angels=masters-lords=kurios) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord (singular-kurio) out of heaven.
{and Lord evrexen on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of heaven}
This is literal; not a bible version or translation. I prefer the literal without bias.
The point being, the angels were involved here. The same ones seen by Abraham in your tie in to chap. 18. God was speaking through, and acting through, the angels; He was not in person. You need to understand the application of how translation affects grammatical structure.
If it were in fact Yahweh that Abraham saw, and wasn't just speaking to him through the presence of an angel, then both Moses and the apostle John are liars:
Ex. 33:20 "But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
John 1:18 "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him"
They didn't say no one has seen God the father, or a different representation of God, they said God!
You draw a lot of conclusions based on false reasoning. I don't expect to you look into this, but I hope you take some time to see where what I present here is factual and provable.
2CHRON 7:14 "If My people, which are called by My name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from Heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." Now why would God ask us to seek His face if it would harm us or that we could not "see" [with the eye of the soul] His face?
When one "sees" the face of God [every beleiver has] they will die to self and become more and more the nature of Christ. Jesus said "Bessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God." But not His shape or form because no one has seen His shape or form because He has none; "God is Spirit" This is what the Scriptures are talking about.
The Bible calls Jesus Christ God. It calls the Holy Spirit God. Both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit have all the attributes of God. Therefore along with the Father, they are triune.
And you might want to look a little closer at this passage you listed.
John 1:18 "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him"
- Yes Mike, Jesus is The Only (Begotten) God. - John 1:18
Jesus said,
"Is it not written in your Law I Said you are gods'? - John 10:34,35
"give thanks to The God of gods" - Ps.136:2
Jesus was born of The Holy Spirit.
But we must be Born Again.
Of course Jesus Speaks as God and for God,
Because Jesus is "The Word 0f God' In The Flesh.
"The Word Became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory as of The Only Begotten 0f The Father...." - John 1:14
The Word Did Not Become God, and dwell among them.
This is what we've been taught. This is not John 1:14.
Bible says that "all authority and power" has been handed to Jesus. He IS God even if He wasn't at some point, and by this statement it is clear that He at some point was not.
Jesus said before the Passion that He would give Himself life again, by "building back up" what was destroyed. Only God gives life.
yes, at other times He spoke as not being good, but only God is good and distanced Himself from God the Father, as He spoke.
However, I am convinced that Jesus was God come in the flesh, and that this is why He spoke with such authority as God much of the time.
I think God totally applies and is scripturally supported in the Word of God. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God..." I study with Jehovah's witnesses sometime and they have explained their point of few on this and this particular scripture and my response is I think ur Greek needs work... I can see why someone might disagree with Jesus/GOD but it is a matter of interpretation, spiritual discernment and maturity.
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Mike555 I couldn't agree with you more!
