Conservative Christians: Will God destroy America for legalizing same sex marriage? (scripture, sin)

[Thomas R.]

Originally Posted by stillkit

2. The law and the Constitution. This has nothing to do with the Church and everything to do with the God-given rights of man protected by the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. You cannot deny one citizen his rights, even for the "right" reasons, without undermining the ideals expressed in those documents and making our great experiment in self rule into a lie.

I would like to see where the Constitution says all consensual romantic or sexual relationships are equal. So far as I know marriage itself is not even directly discussed in any Amendment. Marriage is a pre-Constitutional right or one that transcends the Constitution. In pretty much all societies I know of marriage entails the union of Man and Woman, as those societies use those terms. (Hence in some American Indian cultures a She-male may marry a He-male, but this is arguably more analogous to marrying a transsexual)

It certainly follows homosexuals are equal in all matters that actually involve the Constitution and the law. So they have a right to serve on juries, vote after age 18, run for office, own guns, and so forth. That their relationships can be called "marriage" is not explicitly in the Constitution. That a relationship I might theoretically have with a man must be legally identical with that I might have with a woman no longer even strikes me as all that logical.

Which is maybe irrelevant to the OP. God isn't going to kill us for doing something odd or for denying distinctions that at least seem to exist. If the courts decided all bathrooms in government facilities be unisex, because segregation or distinction by sex is wrong in all things, it would be a similar thing in a way and would also not lead to our destruction.

[stillkit]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

I would like to see where the Constitution says all consensual romantic or sexual relationships are equal. So far as I know marriage itself is not even directly discussed in any Amendment. Marriage is a pre-Constitutional right or one that transcends the Constitution. In pretty much all societies I know of marriage entails the union of Man and Woman, as those societies use those terms. (Hence in some American Indian cultures a She-male may marry a He-male, but this is arguably more analogous to marrying a transsexual)

It certainly follows homosexuals are equal in all matters that actually involve the Constitution and the law. So they have a right to serve on juries, vote after age 18, run for office, own guns, and so forth. That their relationships can be called "marriage" is not explicitly in the Constitution. That a relationship I might theoretically have with a man must be legally identical with that I might have with a woman no longer even strikes me as all that logical.

Which is maybe irrelevant to the OP. God isn't going to kill us for doing something odd or for denying distinctions that at least seem to exist. If the courts decided all bathrooms in government facilities be unisex, because segregation or distinction by sex is wrong in all things, it would be a similar thing in a way and would also not lead to our destruction.

The Constitution also doesn't specify rights for heterosexuals either, though they too can serve on juries, run for office, etc. It applies to all people, regardless of their differences, and each are considered as equal under the law. Consequently, if those of a heterosexual persuasion can legally marry, by what Constitutional authority are homesexual's denied the same right? If they aren't allowed to, then they are no longer equal and the protections of the Constitution are a lie.

And, that Constitution is based upon the ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence and it clearly states the idea that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness." In fact, the founders of the country considered that "self-evident." Moreover, the word "unalienable" is defined as "Not to be separated, given away or taken away."

If homosexuals, during the course of their Pursuit of Happiness and the exercise of their Liberty, wish to legally marry someone of the same sex, how can they be denied their unalienable right to do so? By what authority?

Yes, society and the law have the right, the power, the duty and the obligation to restrict certain of those rights for the public good and safety. For instance, someone may claim the unalienable right to kill his neighbor whenever he wishes, but we have deemed that unacceptable and dangerous to good order and public safety. We The People have decided that's a right which cannot be tolerated and deemed it illegal.

So, it seems to me that whether or not homosexual's should have the right to legally marry turns upon whether or not allowing that would be deterimental to society at large and that's a case which simply has not yet been made, at least not to my satisfaction. In the absence of compelling evidence that allowing it would be a threat to the rest of us, it seems evident to me that they already do have that right under the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

That they do not yet have the right to legally marry another of their chosing is an injustice under the Constitution and should be corrected forthwith.

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by bchris02

Growing up I was taught that homosexuality was the ultimate sin against God and He would completely and totally destroy America if this country were to ever legalize it. The rational part of me says thats hogwash and the liberal Christian part of me says God is love and we are under the age of Grace and not the age of wrath. However, there is a part of me that, having heard the message of fire and brimstone every Sunday for 22 years, is a bit fearful of it happening. I look at things like the collapsing economy and skyrocketing oil prices and wonder if that may be punishment from God (Things spiraled out of control after California legalized gay marriage in Summer of 2008 but became relatively placid after Prop 8 passed until now when things are collapsing once again). I wonder if $100 oil and the crashing stock market has anything to do with Obama's DOMA policy? Does God still punish nations as in the Old Testament or does he deal more on an individual level in this age?

If God's gonna destroy the earth based upon mans actions, it will be all the religious institutions that will do us in.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Jaymax

And nowhere do we read that the men of Sodom were homosexuals.

However if you read the Jewish Encycopedia you will see that the original story was a moral about the Law of Hospitality which was incredibly important to desert dwelling tribes of that time.

Some of the things YHWH "commnanded" his people to do in the OT would be considered "wicked" or "evil" by 21st century standards.

Stop with it already .... nowhere

Genesis 19:4-5
Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

Lot replied:

“No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing"

[jghorton]

Originally Posted by bchris02

Growing up I was taught that homosexuality was the ultimate sin against God and He would completely and totally destroy America if this country were to ever legalize it. The rational part of me says thats hogwash and the liberal Christian part of me says God is love and we are under the age of Grace and not the age of wrath. However, there is a part of me that, having heard the message of fire and brimstone every Sunday for 22 years, is a bit fearful of it happening. I look at things like the collapsing economy and skyrocketing oil prices and wonder if that may be punishment from God (Things spiraled out of control after California legalized gay marriage in Summer of 2008 but became relatively placid after Prop 8 passed until now when things are collapsing once again). I wonder if $100 oil and the crashing stock market has anything to do with Obama's DOMA policy? Does God still punish nations as in the Old Testament or does he deal more on an individual level in this age?

We know from the Bible that God will physically destroy this world until the end time when "the earth and all that is in it will be burned up." But, we also know from Sodom and Gomorrah, Canaan and the world of Noah's day that God does not ignore or 'wink at' sin. The question may not be "will God destroy America?" ... but, rather, "Will God remove His hand of blessing from this nation?" (Perhaps, when we finally abandon Israel?).

The destruction of nations and empires from within is well-documented historical and Biblical fact from the Roman empire ... to modern day Russia, Persia, ancient Egypt and Israel and many other pagan nations. The Bible clearly shows that unbridled sin has its own consequences. Further, no pagan nation has ever survived indefinitely or with impunity on the path of Godlessness and destruction.

Outward sin (eg; breaking the commandments) is not the 'sin' itself, but the outward evidence of inner corruption. One does not have to look far in America today to see a country that is socially and culturally on the path of destruction from within. Sure, we still have a limping economy. a corrupt government and a Godless media ... but, openly accepted sin is clear evidence of inward destruction. Just a few examples include: breakdown of the family unit, abortion on demand, rampant immorality, godless liberalism, spiraling illegitimate birth rates, pornography, paganism; open, unbridled homosexuality, government corruption and "people unwilling to endure sound doctrine, but every man seeking to be his own god".

God will not need to destroy America for open homosexuality or any other outward sins (or the pretense that these things are not sin in God's eyes). We will inevitably do that on our own if we continue down this path ... and there is no evidence that our nation has the will to change paths.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Stop with it already .... nowhere

Genesis 19:4-5
Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

Lot replied:

“No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing"

A faulty translation from Traditional thinking.

"A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, feet that are swift to do mischief, a false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among the people."

Pride goes before destruction; and a haughty spirit before a fall. So, I will say this again: "Pridefulness is a lofty and arrogant assumption of superiority."

[scgraham]

Originally Posted by austiNati

I understand that some of you actually agree that homosexuality isn't a choice and it's the way someone's born, but I still hear "it's a sin in God's eyes." To me, that translates to: God creates a person as gay/lesbian, and then tells them not to act upon it, leading that said person to live a life of loneliness because he/she can't fall in love with whom they are attracted to. If they do, they are somehow going against the will of God ( because God cares sooo much about our sex life, despite being preoccupied with other things such as expanding the universe etc..)

Every sinner can make this argument, whether they are adulterers, fornicators, thieves, child molesters, murderers and so forth. They can proclaim that they are born with desires to do these things, so it's their right to act upon them so they'll be happy. However, that won't hold up, even within man's laws in America; laws have to be implemented to abate chaos. How much more should God's laws be heeded?

[scgraham]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

It's very interesting that the word homosexual does not appear in the text, only in traditional thinking?

Now, take some time and check this out:

"But a beautiful cedar palace does not make a great king! Your father, Josiah, also had plenty to eat and drink. But he was just and right in all his dealings.
That is why God blessed him. He gave justice and help to the poor and needy, and everything went well for him. Isn’t that what it means to know (yada) me?"

Says the Lord. (Jeremiah 22:15-16)

The Hebrew word yada is translated in English as the word; to know or that of knowledge.

Sounds like new age philosophy to tickles men's ears. Meanwhile, the pure Word of God will not be compromised by such nonsense. Those wicked men of Sodom were burned up with fire and brimstone for their wickedness; they wanted to have sex with Lot's guests, who were angels of the Lord. Notice: if homosexuality is alright, then why didn't Lot offer himself to those men instead of his daughters? This proves, yet again, that homosexuality is wrong.

[Dewdroplet76]

Originally Posted by stillkit

The Constitution also doesn't specify rights for heterosexuals either, though they too can serve on juries, run for office, etc. It applies to all people, regardless of their differences, and each are considered as equal under the law. Consequently, if those of a heterosexual persuasion can legally marry, by what Constitutional authority are homesexual's denied the same right? If they aren't allowed to, then they are no longer equal and the protections of the Constitution are a lie.

And, that Constitution is based upon the ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence and it clearly states the idea that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness." In fact, the founders of the country considered that "self-evident." Moreover, the word "unalienable" is defined as "Not to be separated, given away or taken away."

If homosexuals, during the course of their Pursuit of Happiness and the exercise of their Liberty, wish to legally marry someone of the same sex, how can they be denied their unalienable right to do so? By what authority?

Yes, society and the law have the right, the power, the duty and the obligation to restrict certain of those rights for the public good and safety. For instance, someone may claim the unalienable right to kill his neighbor whenever he wishes, but we have deemed that unacceptable and dangerous to good order and public safety. We The People have decided that's a right which cannot be tolerated and deemed it illegal.

So, it seems to me that whether or not homosexual's should have the right to legally marry turns upon whether or not allowing that would be deterimental to society at large and that's a case which simply has not yet been made, at least not to my satisfaction. In the absence of compelling evidence that allowing it would be a threat to the rest of us, it seems evident to me that they already do have that right under the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

That they do not yet have the right to legally marry another of their chosing is an injustice under the Constitution and should be corrected forthwith.

Exactly!!!

[.sparrow.]

Originally Posted by scgraham

Notice: if homosexuality is alright, then why didn't Lot offer himself to those men instead of his daughters? This proves, yet again, that homosexuality is wrong.

No, all it proves is Lot was obviously a coward and a very bad father for offering his daughters to be raped.