Problems with the Virgin Birth (Gospel, procreation, doctrine, women)
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Avoiding the issue of the interpretation of Is 7:14 Matthew used in writing of the Virgin Birth of Jesus, even if we accept it we are left with three problems.
1. Jesus would not have been born of the "seed of David" if Joseph was not his biological father.
Procreation came exclusively from the male seed. Never the woman The woman merely provided the incubation for development of the seed (if she was "fertile" and not "barren").
2. But even so, Luke tells us that Mary was the cousin (or kinswomen) of Elizabeth. And Elizabeth was a "daughter of Aaron." So it's most probable that Mary too was a daughter of Arron (and hence not Davidic).
3. A third problem is that if Jesus was born exclusively from the body of Mary, he would be female, not male. A woman doesn't have a "Y" chromosome to transmit maleness to the offspring. This has to come from the male.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 12-18-2010 at 07:48 PM..
Reason: typo
Avoiding the issue of the interpretation of Is 7:14 Matthew used in writing of the Virgin Birth of Jesus, even if we accept it we are left with three problems.
1. Jesus would not have been born of the "seed of David" if Joseph was not his biological father.
Procreation came exclusively from the male seed. Never the woman The woman merely provided the incubation for development of the seed (if she was "fertile" and not "barren").
2. But even so, Luke tells us that Mary was the cousin (or kinswomen) of Elizabeth. And Elizabeth was a "daughter of Aaron." So it's most probable that Mary too was a daughter of Arron (and hence not Davidic).
3. A third problem is that if Jesus was born exclusively from the body of Mary, he would be female, not male. A woman doesn't have a "Y" chromosome to transmit maleness to the offspring. This has to come from the male.
Mat 1:1-17 The of the lineage of Jesus Christ, the of David, the Son of Abraham. (2) begets Isaac; now Isaac begets Jacob; now Jacob begets Judah and his brothers. (3) Judah begets Pharez and Zarah of Thamar. Now Pharez begets Hesron; now Hesron begets Aram; (4) Aram begets Amminadab; now Amminadab begets Nahshon; now Nahshon begets Salmon; (5) Salmon begets Boaz of Rahab; now Boaz begets Obed of Ruth; now Obed begets Jesse; (6) Jesse begets David the king. Now David begets Solomon of the wife Uriah; (7) Solomon begets Rehoboam; now Rehoboam begets Abiah; now Abiah begets Asaph; (8) Asaph begets Joshaphat; now Joshaphat begets Jehoram; now Jehoram begets Uzziah; (9) Uzziah begets Jotham; now Jotham begets Ahaz; now Ahaz begets Hezekiah; (10) Hezekiah begets Manasseh; now Manasseh begets Amos; now Amos begets Josiah; (11) Josiah begets Jeconiah and his brothers at the Babylonexile. (12) after the Babylonexile Jeconiah begets Shalthiel; now Shalthiel begets Zerubbabel; (13) Zerubbabel begets Abihud; now Abihud begets Eliakim; now Eliakim begets Azor; (14) Azor begets Zadok; now Zadok begets Achim; now Achim begets Eliud; (15) Eliud begets Eleazar; now Eleazar begets Matthan; now Matthan begets Jacob; (16) Jacob begets Joseph, the husband of Mary of whom was born Jesus,Who is termed "Christ." (17) all the generations from Abraham till David are fourteen generations, and from David till the Babylonexile are fourteen generations, and from the Babylonexile till the Christ are fourteen generations.
Luk 3:23-38 And He, Jesus, when beginning, was about thirty years old, being a son (as to the law) of Joseph, of Eli, of Matthat, of Levi, (24) of Melchi, of Jannai, of Joseph, (25) of Mattathias, of Amos, of Nahum, of Esli, of Naggai, (26) of Maath, of Mattithiah, of Shemei, of Josech, of Joda, (27) of Joanna, of Rhesa, of Zerubbabel, of Shalthiel, of Neri, (28) of Melchi, of Addi, of Cosam, of Elmadam, of Er, (29) of Jesus, of Eliezer, of Jorim, of Matthat, of Levi, (30) of Simeon, of Judah, of Joseph, of Jonam, of Eliakim, (31) of Melea, of Menna, of Mattathah, of Nathan, of David, (32) of Jesse, of Obed, of Boaz, of Salmon, of Nahson, (33) of Amminadab, of Admein, of Arni, of Hezron, of Pharez, of Judah, (34) of Jacob, of Isaac, of Abraham, of Tera, of Nahor, (35) of Serug, of Reu, of Peleg, of Eber, of Shelah, (36) of Cainan, of Arphaxad, of Shem, of Noah, of Lamech, (37) of Methuselah, of Enoch, of Jared, of Maleleel, of Cainan, (38) of Enosh, of Seth, of Adam, of God."
Avoiding the issue of the interpretation of Is 7:14 Matthew used in writing of the Virgin Birth of Jesus, even if we accept it we are left with three problems.
1. Jesus would not have been born of the "seed of David" if Joseph was not his biological father.
Procreation came exclusively from the male seed. Never the woman The woman merely provided the incubation for development of the seed (if she was "fertile" and not "barren").
2. But even so, Luke tells us that Mary was the cousin (or kinswomen) of Elizabeth. And Elizabeth was a "daughter of Aaron." So it's most probable that Mary too was a daughter of Arron (and hence not Davidic).
3. A third problem is that if Jesus was born exclusively from the body of Mary, he would be female, not male. A woman doesn't have a "Y" chromosome to transmit maleness to the offspring. This has to come from the male.
Jesus is born of the Seed of God His Father in Heaven.
3. A third problem is that if Jesus was born exclusively from the body of Mary, he would be female, not male. A woman doesn't have a "Y" chromosome to transmit maleness to the offspring. This has to come from the male.
not quite.it still takes the same number of chromosomes to produce a human.those have to come from somewhere,and Jesus was not a female clone of Mary (nor could she have created the pregnancy on her own),therefore,it's rightful to assume it was a Divine pregnancy,procreated from above.the other set of dna was of God.
don't ask me how He did it,but by all means certainly we know we can reproduce without sex nowadays.and God knew it back then,too,although I think all He had to do was say the word and as with all creation,it was done.
As in Matthew 1: 1-17......Joseph and his fathers and grandfathers were a spiritual seed and point of cantact for The Lord to bring Jesus to the earth, and NOT any phyical seed , all these fathers were blessed and chosen by the Lord God,,,,, as with Mary, her seed was NOT used to birth Jesus, for Jesus came to Mary by The Holy Spirit miracle and Mary was a surrogate for the Lord God....... Marys father and her ancesters name was not important and once Married , Woman changed their name.... The virgin birth has always been a problem for many people and churches who rejected it or watered it down or tried to explain it to people who will not believe in Miracles from the Lord God..... Some Churches believe in Marys seed for the birth and some churches don`t believe it, and reject Heaven part and say it was natural birth....See The Lord needed Isaac to be a mediator for Christ but Isaac who was born natural only became a shadow mediator for The Lord God `till Jesus came
Avoiding the issue of the interpretation of Is 7:14 Matthew used in writing of the Virgin Birth of Jesus, even if we accept it we are left with three problems.
Very insightful post. Truth seekers may be interested to read what Mary, a Celestial spirit, wrote through the medium James Padgett on April 15, 1916. This message can also be found in volume 2, page 142 of True Gospel Revealed Anew by Jesus.
"Question - Was Joseph the father of Jesus
Well, I suppose I am the only one in all the universe of God, who knows the fact with reference to that question, and I as a spirit of the Celestial Spheres, knowing only truth, say to you and all the world, that Joseph was the actual father of Jesus, and that he was conceived and born as any other mortal was conceived and born. The Holy Spirit did not beget him and I never was informed that such a thing would happen."
Mary further went on to write:
"I was known by Joseph before the conception of Jesus, and by him I was made pregnant with that blessed son. This is the truth and all accounts and statements to the contrary are erroneous."
Mary writes that Jesus was the natural son of Joseph and Mary (http://tinyurl.com/yz2matz - broken link)
Now, I know many of you will be astonished to read what Mary writes here... especially since it's written in the "Word of God" that she was a virgin. Well, she's disputed that as being erroneous. So there are now two things to consider. If the Bible is wrong, then who made up this fictional character and why did they include it in there? If this is, indeed, Jesus' real mother, then doesn't it make sense that he was born just as every living person on earth is born?
Why is Jesus special? He wasn't born divine. He became divine, the Christ, only after his soul went through a period of soul development while receiving God's Divine Love. It wasn't because of any miraculous supernatural birth from God and his mom. He prayed for it... and we can do the same thing as he did, if it is our desire to become divine on earth. Blessings.
Very insightful post. Truth seekers may be interested to read what Mary, a Celestial spirit, wrote through the medium James Padgett on April 15, 1916. This message can also be found in volume 2, page 142 of True Gospel Revealed Anew by Jesus.
"Question - Was Joseph the father of Jesus
Well, I suppose I am the only one in all the universe of God, who knows the fact with reference to that question, and I as a spirit of the Celestial Spheres, knowing only truth, say to you and all the world, that Joseph was the actual father of Jesus, and that he was conceived and born as any other mortal was conceived and born. The Holy Spirit did not beget him and I never was informed that such a thing would happen."
Mary further went on to write:
"I was known by Joseph before the conception of Jesus, and by him I was made pregnant with that blessed son. This is the truth and all accounts and statements to the contrary are erroneous."
Mary writes that Jesus was the natural son of Joseph and Mary (http://tinyurl.com/yz2matz - broken link)
Now, I know many of you will be astonished to read what Mary writes here... especially since it's written in the "Word of God" that she was a virgin. Well, she's disputed that as being erroneous. So there are now two things to consider. If the Bible is wrong, then who made up this fictional character and why did they include it in there? If this is, indeed, Jesus' real mother, then doesn't it make sense that he was born just as every living person on earth is born?
Why is Jesus special? He wasn't born divine. He became divine, the Christ, only after his soul went through a period of soul development while receiving God's Divine Love. It wasn't because of any miraculous supernatural birth from God and his mom. He prayed for it... and we can do the same thing as he did, if it is our desire to become divine on earth. Blessings.
Jesus was not the natural son of Joseph. Jesus could not be born of the seed of Adam. If He were, then He Himself would be OF the Body of Adam and under the same condemnation passed as Judgement to all those that were of the body of Adam which means HE would be under the curse of death as well. The redeemer could NOT be under the same condemnation for which He was to be redeemer of. Jesus was born of a virgin and the scriptures record that fact.
Jesus was not the natural son of Joseph. Jesus could not be born of the seed of Adam. If He were, then He Himself would be OF the Body of Adam and under the same condemnation passed as Judgement to all those that were of the body of Adam which means HE would be under the curse of death as well. The redeemer could NOT be under the same condemnation for which He was to be redeemer of. Jesus was born of a virgin and the scriptures record that fact.
Well, you're right. Jesus was not born under the same condemnation as A&E, however, he was born under the seed of Adam, as he and Eve were the first parents... as we all are.
The reason Jesus is the "redeemer," if you want to call him that is because of the differences in the soul make up of A&E, and all those born afterward... until the birth of Jesus. A&E's souls were not created to long for God's Divine Love. They were given the opportunity and they knew about it, but they rejected it, so the gift of Love was withdrawn from all mankind until the birth of Jesus. His soul was created to long for this Love and, thank God, he did long for and receive it. If Jesus would have followed the way of A&E, then he wouldn't have become divine and we wouldn't have the opportunity either. So rather than being born of a virgin, Jesus' soul was created free from sin and error.
Here's what Jesus wrote through the medium James Padgett on September 28, 1914. This message can be found in volume 1 at page 366 of True Gospel Revealed Anew by Jesus.
"I was not conceived by the Holy Spirit, as it is taught by the preachers and teachers who are now leading mankind in the doctrines of the churches. I was born as you were born, and my earthly father was Joseph. I was conceived by God's Spirit in the sense that I was born free from sin and error, while all other human beings were born in sin and error."
Jesus tells who he really was (http://tinyurl.com/yl6ypg4 - broken link)
Well, you're right. Jesus was not born under the same condemnation as A&E, however, he was born under the seed of Adam, as he and Eve were the first parents... as we all are.
The reason Jesus is the "redeemer," if you want to call him that is because of the differences in the soul make up of A&E, and all those born afterward... until the birth of Jesus. A&E's souls were not created to long for God's Divine Love. They were given the opportunity and they knew about it, but they rejected it, so the gift of Love was withdrawn from all mankind until the birth of Jesus. His soul was created to long for this Love and, thank God, he did long for and receive it. If Jesus would have followed the way of A&E, then he wouldn't have become divine and we wouldn't have the opportunity either. So rather than being born of a virgin, Jesus' soul was created free from sin and error.
Here's what Jesus wrote through the medium James Padgett on September 28, 1914. This message can be found in volume 1 at page 366 of True Gospel Revealed Anew by Jesus.
"I was not conceived by the Holy Spirit, as it is taught by the preachers and teachers who are now leading mankind in the doctrines of the churches. I was born as you were born, and my earthly father was Joseph. I was conceived by God's Spirit in the sense that I was born free from sin and error, while all other human beings were born in sin and error."
Jesus tells who he really was (http://tinyurl.com/yl6ypg4 - broken link)
What your saying is contrary to the Holy Spirit. Jesus was born of the Word of God. The Word of God is the seed.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
I guess you want me to believe someone from 1914 verses what was written and embraced in the Bible? I don't see the reason in that. We have the writings of the Old Testament forecasting that the Messiah would be born of a virgin.
Jesus is born of the Seed of God His Father in Heaven.
RESPONSE:
Then he was not in David's lineage, was he?
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