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There's eternal security for the believer, so long as he/she walks in obedience. If not, he/she will be blotted out of the Book of Life.
Revelation 3:5 - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
So if the believer has lost all of his faith he still receives salvation? Does that really make sense to you Mike? Faith is belief. If a believer has lost faith then the believe is no longer a believer. Faith = Belief, Belief = Faith.
Besides if the Faith is dead then can dead Faith save someone?
When the foundation is flawed (teaching of ET and/or annihilation), then everything taught after it is flawed as well. That's why the once saved always saved argument is futile.
Once you believe in UR, so many puzzle pieces just all into place.
(didn't mean to hijack this into another ET vs. UR debate)
Mike, 2 Timothy 2:11-12 should then be understood that Baptism isn't symbolic. Because through baptism we are buried with Christ and just like Christ, we too may live a new life. Romans 6:4. Meaning Jesus' death and ressurection was not symbolic.
trettep makes a good point. Without faith it is impossible to please God. So if someone loses their faith and still gets saved, then what's the next logical step ..... UR.
Of course the death and resurrection of Jesus was not symbolic.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a real baptism. It is water baptism that is a ritual and represents what took place with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They are two different things. One is real and the other is ritual which portrays the one which is real.
I do not want to get into another discussion on water baptism. That is not the topic of this thread.
The believer who loses his faith does not lose his eternal salvation. He loses his eternal rewards. But he remains eternally saved. That has nothing to do with the false teaching of universal salvation. Only those who have believed in Christ have eternal life. Not everyone will believe in Christ as Savior. But those who do, once having believed, remain eternally saved if they should lose their faith.
When the foundation is flawed (teaching of ET and/or annihilation), then everything taught after it is flawed as well. That's why the once saved always saved argument is futile.
Once you believe in UR, so many puzzle pieces just all into place.
(didn't mean to hijack this into another ET vs. UR debate)
That's exactly what happens...one sin leads to another. Doctrinal errors lead to more errors...
2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
When the foundation is flawed (teaching of ET and/or annihilation), then everything taught after it is flawed as well. That's why the once saved always saved argument is futile.
Once you believe in UR, so many puzzle pieces just all into place.
(didn't mean to hijack this into another ET vs. UR debate)
Then don't bring it up. Universal salvation is not Scriptural. The eternal security of the believer is.
If the believer loses faith (as you say), then your interpretation of John 3:36 contradicts your own words:
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
"Believethnot" is used in the present tense. Shall not "see" life is being used in the future tense.
No. As long as the unbeliever remains an unbeliever he shall not see life. If he dies without ever having believed in Christ for salvation he will never see life. But once he has received Christ as Savior he has received the gift of eternal life. Once he has initially placed his faith in Christ his eternal salvation is secured. Continual faith is not a necessity for salvation. The merit is not in the faith but in the one in whom the faith is directed - Jesus Christ.
Your argument is with John and scripture, not me... You'll either need to rethink your OSAS doctrine, as it pertains to unbelief, or you'll need to reinterpret what John 3:36 actually says. You really can't have it both ways...they're mutually exclusive.
I'm also not surprised you found a website in support of your doctrines, but so do atheists and everyone else. You'll find just as much doctrinal porn out there as any other type...
Your argument is with John and scripture, not me... You'll either need to rethink your OSAS doctrine, as it pertains to unbelief, or you'll need to reinterpret what John 3:36 actually says. You really can't have it both ways...they're mutually exclusive.
I'm also not surprised you found a website in support of your doctrines, but so do atheists and everyone else. You'll find just as much doctrinal porn out there as any other type...
It is not I who am arguing. You insist that because in John 3:36 the word 'believe' is in the Present Active Participle, that it implies continuous action. It [the Present Active Participle] does not of necessity always imply continuous action.
In John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Jesus could just have easily said, 'he who has heard My word and has believed in Me, has eternal life.
Both the word 'believes' and 'hears' are in the Present Active Participle. One does not need to continously keep on hearing the gospel. One need only hear it once in order to believe it. In the same manner, one does not need to keep on continously believing in order to maintain eternal salvation. One act of non-meritorous faith in Christ results in eternal salvation.
In John 4:13 Jesus told the Samaritan woman, ''...Everyone who drinks of this water [literal water] shall thirst again; 14] but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him [eternal life] shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.''
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-21-2011 at 01:46 PM..
It is not I who am arguing. You insist that because in John 3:36 the word 'believe' is in the Present Active Participle, that it implies continuous action. It [the Present Active Participle] does not of necessity always imply continuous action.
In John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Jesus could just have easily said, 'he who has heard My word and has believed in Me, has eternal life.
Both the word 'believes' and 'hears' are in the Present Active Participle. One does not need to continously keep on hearing the gospel. One need only hear it once in order to believe it. In the same manner, one does not need to keep on continously believing in order to maintain eternal salvation. One act of non-meritorous faith in Christ results in eternal salvation.
In John 4:13 Jesus told the Samaritan woman, ''...Everyone who drinks of this water [literal water] shall thirst again; 14] but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him [eternal life] shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.''
None of this supports your position. Actually you've selected versus that refute it.
The issue I'm having is with your interpretation of why OSAS is correct. It's your interpretation of why OSAS is correct, that is not correct (if that makes any sense).
OSAS should actually be interpreted within the context of "those whom Christ knows will never perish".
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Luke 9:62 makes me doubtful of eternal security. I will endeavor to stay forgiven right up to the end, just in case the eternal security doctrine is wrong. I want to be in God's Kingdom.
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