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Old 03-20-2011, 11:21 PM
Status: "There is more to reality than we know." (set 23 hours ago)
 
Location: El Paso, TX
29,791 posts, read 22,083,988 times
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If you have personally placed your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, you have received the free gift of eternal life and you can never lose it. You are in possession of it right now [1 John 5:11] and it is yours forever. Your eternal salvation is by means of grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone [Eph 2:8,9].

Just as you did nothing to earn salvation, neither can you do anything to maintain it or to lose it. Eternal salvation is offered as a free gift which is received on the basis of non-meritorious faith directed toward the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:30 ''...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?'' 31] And they said, ''Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved...''

John 4:10 'Jesus answered and said to her, ''If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water [eternal life].''

Romans 11:29 'for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Eternal life is a gift for the asking, and once given, it is irrevocable. If a person has eternal life, he has it forever.

John 10:28 is one of the clearest declarations in the word of God concerning eternal security, that the person who believes in Jesus Christ for salvation will never be lost. ''And I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.''

''They shall never perish'' is a double negative, which in the Greek is a strong affirmation: ou mē apolōntai eis ton aiōna. ['they never not will perish forever.' 'They will indeed not ever perish.']



Though believers do sin and stumble, Jesus is the perfect shepherd and He loses none of His flock. The security of the sheep is found in the ability of the shepherd to defend and preserve His flock. And no one can snatch His sheep out of His hand. Nor can the believer fall out of Jesus' hand.
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:02 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 11,458,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If you have personally placed your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, you have received the free gift of eternal life and you can never lose it.


Though believers do sin and stumble, Jesus is the perfect shepherd and He loses none of His flock. The security of the sheep is found in the ability of the shepherd to defend and preserve His flock. And no one can snatch His sheep out of His hand. Nor can the believer fall out of Jesus' hand.
It's simply not so. Though the Bible speaks of eternal security to which I agree with you, Scripture also warns about losing faith.
Ezekiel 3:20
“Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered"

Matthew 24:13
but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;

Revelation 2:4-5
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

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Old 03-21-2011, 01:41 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,887,370 times
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I still find it very humorous to read through these threads that there are so many POV using the exact same text or cherry picking them.

I have rejected Christianity in it's entirety so if you think I am still somehow saved then I really do not know what to say.

The texts twin cites does not really make his case either. The fact that there is blatantly obvious contradictions as to the eternal salvation should cause one to question its validity or accuracy.

I was thinking, could either of the three camps defend their doctrines by excluding everything apart from the alleged gospels? All three schools of thought are Paulinist and not really the message I ever got from the gospels.

As a secular humanist, I do not have to deal with these contradictions anymore. The fact that you guys are here arguing anyway suggests to me you have doubts and thus look for a confirmation bias to be appeased.

Paganism runs deep in Paul's alleged writings and thus the initial intent of the Roman empire is still being met today.

The one thing about the RCC, they are consistent in the beliefs as they are told how to interpret scripture. Protestants sola scriptura leaves just too many varied opinions.

If Christianity were true, there would be no arguments whatsoever, sadly that is not the case.
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Old 03-21-2011, 01:58 AM
 
Location: in here, out there
3,061 posts, read 6,563,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

Though believers do sin and stumble, Jesus is the perfect shepherd and He loses none of His flock. The security of the sheep is found in the ability of the shepherd to defend and preserve His flock. And no one can snatch His sheep out of His hand. Nor can the believer fall out of Jesus' hand.
Does this count for Westboro Baptist Church, too?
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Old 03-21-2011, 03:01 AM
Status: "There is more to reality than we know." (set 23 hours ago)
 
Location: El Paso, TX
29,791 posts, read 22,083,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
It's simply not so. Though the Bible speaks of eternal security, Scripture also warns about losing faith.
It is true that the believer can lose faith. But losing faith is not losing eternal salvation.


Quote:
Ezekiel 3:20
“Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered"


Twin, Ezekiel 3:20 is not talking about losing eternal salvation. In Ezekiel chapters 1-3 a warning about impending judgment on Israel is being given. This has to do with the upcoming Babylonian captivity. Ezekiel's responsibility was to be a watchman to warn the Jews about the judgment coming upon them. He was to warn both the wicked and the righteous. A wicked person who refused to heed God's warning would die physically at the hands of the enemy. God would hold Ezekiel responsible for anyone he did not warn. The righteous man was warned so that he might not turn from his righteousness and do evil.

I have verified this in 'The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Old Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by the Dallas Theological Seminary Faculty.'

Loss of eternal salvation is not in view.


Quote:
Matthew 24:13
but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
This passage is also not talking about personal self effort at endurance that results in eternal salvation. Matthew 24:13 is talking about the fact that with the exception of those believers who are martyred, tribulational believers who have faith will live to the end of the Tribulation and go into the Millennial kingdom in their physical bodies. I know you don't believe in the Millennium, so you are going to have a problem with believing this, but it IS true.


Quote:
2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
Twin, this is talking about eternal rewards.

2 Timothy 2:11 'For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; [This refers to the believers position in Christ which results from the baptism of the Holy Spirit and which is portrayed symbollically in water baptism. The believer is identified with Christ in His death and resurrection.

12] If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; [just as Christ suffered and will one day reign, so too will the believer who suffers and endures in his spiritual life rule with Christ as one of his rewards.] If we deny Him, He will also deny us;[this refers to loss of rewards. The apostate believer will lose eternal rewards. Compare with Matthew 10:33]

13] If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself.[If the believer is faithless, yet Christ remains faithful. He will not let the believer go. The believer has eternal security.


Quote:
Revelation 2:4-5
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Revelation 2:4-5 is addressed to the church at Ephesus and by extension, any church during the church-age. The church at Ephesus was commended by Christ for their deeds and perseverance and that they could not endure evil men. But their love was not as it had been. They had left their first love and Jesus was warning them to repent and change their attitudes. Otherwise the light of their witness in Ephesus would be extinquished.
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Old 03-21-2011, 05:54 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,474,051 times
Reputation: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If you have personally placed your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, you have received the free gift of eternal life and you can never lose it. You are in possession of it right now [1 John 5:11] and it is yours forever. Your eternal salvation is by means of grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone [Eph 2:8,9].

Just as you did nothing to earn salvation, neither can you do anything to maintain it or to lose it. Eternal salvation is offered as a free gift which is received on the basis of non-meritorious faith directed toward the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:30 ''...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?'' 31] And they said, ''Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved...''

John 4:10 'Jesus answered and said to her, ''If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water [eternal life].''

Romans 11:29 'for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Eternal life is a gift for the asking, and once given, it is irrevocable. If a person has eternal life, he has it forever.

John 10:28 is one of the clearest declarations in the word of God concerning eternal security, that the person who believes in Jesus Christ for salvation will never be lost. ''And I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.''

''They shall never perish'' is a double negative, which in the Greek is a strong affirmation: ou mē apolōntai eis ton aiōna. ['they never not will perish forever.' 'They will indeed not ever perish.']



Though believers do sin and stumble, Jesus is the perfect shepherd and He loses none of His flock. The security of the sheep is found in the ability of the shepherd to defend and preserve His flock. And no one can snatch His sheep out of His hand. Nor can the believer fall out of Jesus' hand.
Isn't the Faith a gift?
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Old 03-21-2011, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,474,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is true that the believer can lose faith. But losing faith is not losing eternal salvation.
So if the believer has lost all of his faith he still receives salvation? Does that really make sense to you Mike? Faith is belief. If a believer has lost faith then the believe is no longer a believer. Faith = Belief, Belief = Faith.

Besides if the Faith is dead then can dead Faith save someone?
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:40 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 11,458,519 times
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Mike,
2 Timothy 2:11-12 should then be understood that Baptism isn't symbolic. Because through baptism we are buried with Christ and just like Christ, we too may live a new life. Romans 6:4. Meaning Jesus' death and ressurection was not symbolic.

trettep makes a good point. Without faith it is impossible to please God. So if someone loses their faith and still gets saved, then what's the next logical step ..... UR.
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:17 AM
Status: "There is more to reality than we know." (set 23 hours ago)
 
Location: El Paso, TX
29,791 posts, read 22,083,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
So if the believer has lost all of his faith he still receives salvation? Does that really make sense to you Mike? Faith is belief. If a believer has lost faith then the believe is no longer a believer. Faith = Belief, Belief = Faith.

Besides if the Faith is dead then can dead Faith save someone?
The merit is not in the faith. The merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. Once a person receives the gift of salvation through one non-meritorious act of faith directed toward Christ, he has taken possession of eternal life. Once it has been given to him, he has it. It is not then taken back by God if the believer should lose his faith. Once the believer has eternal life it is his forever.

At the initial moment of faith, the one believing is imputed with both the perfect righteousness of God and with God's own eternal life. The believer is entered into union with Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The believer is positionally in Christ. He does not lose that position if he loses his faith.

You asked a separate question in another post. 'Isn't faith a gift?' That was probably with regard to the fact that I said the gifts of God are irrevocable. The ability to exercise, to express faith comes from God. The choice to exercise that faith comes from you. Faith is a response to what you know about a person (including Christ), or about a thing. Faith is trust-confidence.

Romans 8:38 expresses the reality of the eternal security of the believer. 'For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39] nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.'

Paul was discussing the believer's safety in Jesus Christ and the certainty of positional sanctification. This passage affirms the eternal security of the believer in Jesus Christ. The believer himself fits into the category of 'any created thing'. The believer cannot remove himself from the love of God.

You asked with reference to James 2:14, ''Besides if the Faith is dead then can dead Faith save someone?''

James is not talking about eternal salvation. In fact, the New Testament epistles less often refer to eternal salvation then they do to what you might call temporal salvation - deliverance from divine discipline because of continued disobedience, deliverance from self induced misery, deliverance from a ruined life. Things of that nature.

The issue James is addressing is faith that works. Putting your faith into action. James is addressing believers. People who already have eternal life.

The issue of dead faith has to do with experiential sanctification, not positional sanctification. Experiential sanctification has to do with the believers spiritual life after he has been eternally saved.

James 1:14 'What use is it, my brethren [brothers-believers] if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?'

Save him from what?

1. From a ruined life of sin. James 1:21. 'Therefore putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls [from a ruined life of sin].

2. From judgment which results from disobeying the royal law, according to the Scripture, James 2:8 ''...You shall love your neighbor as yourself...''

James 2:17 says that faith without works is dead. That means useless as in v20. People can only see your faith by your works. The believer can only demonstate his faith to others by his works.

People think that the believer can lose his salvation because they don't understand the distinction between positional sanctification and experiential sanctification.

Positional sanctification refers to the believer being placed into union with Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the moment he believes in Christ. He can never lose that position.

Experiential sanctification refers to the believers spiritual growth after salvation. The believer has to make decisions to learn and apply Bible doctrine to his life in order to advance spiritually.
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:23 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,711,070 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is true that the believer can lose faith. But losing faith is not losing eternal salvation.
If the believer loses faith (as you say), then your interpretation of John 3:36 contradicts your own words:

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"Believeth not" is used in the present tense. Shall not "see" life is being used in the future tense.
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