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If we are all honest with ourselves regardless of what faith ,race,culture, nation we are of, whether we are a believer or athiest, we have questions,. God knows we have questions(Not questioning Him) the discliples were often asking Jesus question and he always answered them.
To dismiss those who have questions as being "you are questioning God and his ways" is a cop out and proof we have nothing in our well to draw off to answer them.
Quoting a bunch of scriptures at someone is not the way to answer someone too for the reason we have this hope within us, Jesus although he quoted scriptures he ministered life from them by expounding upon them,a great example of this is the account of the 2 men on the road to Emmaus,Jesus expounded upon the scriptures to them, and all that fear,doubt and questions they had were answered and their hearts burned within, these two brothers were now able to give an answer for the hope they had to all who came to them with questions.
Rob talks about a lot of other things. About how Christianity seems to be focused on 'getting out of here' to go 'some place else' instead of trying to make the Kingdom here.
I have about 20 pages left to go - I read it in bits and pieces in bed before I drift off to sleep...
Anyway its a good read. He asks a lot of pertinent questions, questions similar that you and I have asked on this forum before. Here's a few select quotes:
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'Her daughter was asked by a Christian if the young man who had died was a Christian. She said that he told people he was an atheist. This person then said to her, "So there's no hope then."
No hope? Is that the Christian message?
"No hope"?
Is that what Jesus offers the world?'
--
'What if the missionary gets a flat tire?
This raises another, far more disturbing question:
Is your future in someone else's hands?
Which raises another question:
Is someone else's eternity resting in your hands?'
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'Let's be very clear, then: we do not need to be rescued from God. God is the one who rescues us from death, sin, and destruction. God is the rescuer.'
--
Rob talks about a lot of other things. About how Christianity seems to be focused on 'getting out of here' to go 'some place else' instead of trying to make the Kingdom here. About what our picture of Jesus is. Which picture of Jesus do we believe in.
The book is definitely worth the read.
Thanks, legoman! I've been wanting to get the book, but I didn't want to read it only to be disappointed if he said "all paths lead to God," but it didn't sound that way from the video. I saw on the other thread where you recommended Hope Beyond Hell. Do you think Love Wins explains it at least well enough that people will understand how Christ died for all, will not fail in His purpose, etc.?
Thanks, legoman! I've been wanting to get the book, but I didn't want to read it only to be disappointed if he said "all paths lead to God," but it didn't sound that way from the video. I saw on the other thread where you recommended Hope Beyond Hell. Do you think Love Wins explains it at least well enough that people will understand how Christ died for all, will not fail in His purpose, etc.?
Hi BHfT, you might want to read some of the reviews on Amazon. There are quite a few of them.
I just finished the book last night, now I think I will need to read it again... lol
The way Rob explains things in Love wins is just different than how a book like Hope Beyond Hell is written. Personally I think Hope Beyond Hell is probably better for getting into the nitty gritty details. However that format may not be accessible to the complete newbie.
What Rob does is make some of the ideas accessible. He asks questions, alot of them. He has a whole chapter entitled "Does God get what He wants?" He goes through this thought process. What does God want? Does God want to save all people? (yes) And will He be able to achieve this? Or will He be frustrated forever? Can puny humans overpower God's enormous love for us all? Isn't God's love so much bigger than we imagine, yet we think humans can reject it forever?
He talks about what Christ did on the cross. How His mission was to save the world... so did He save the world? Will He save the world? Was that just for a few? Was it for many? Was it for all? What did that mean? What does it mean for us as followers of Christ? He goes through this kind of thought process often.
Rob plainly says:
1. He is not a universalist
2. He believes in heaven and hell
3. He believes people make a choice of where to go
Yet he does not have traditional ideas on this.
He believes hell is a state you can enter in now by your own actions or the actions of others. Someone who has been raped every day of their life is in a hell. So is the one doing it. War is hell. etc.
But that is not forever, this hell can be overcome.
In the same way, heaven is not a future state that we are tying to "get to" so we can "escape" from this world. He talks about the "escape mentality" where Christians just worry about getting to the next world instead of trying to love those in this one.
As Christians we are called to be a light in this world, to spread love to those in need. And by doing so we are part of Christ's Kingdom.
This is just my paraphrase of what he said. He talks about this in a lot of ways, through questions, through "what-if" scenarios. He has this style, sort of a metaphor approach to a lot of things. The questions are plain as day that he asks, questions anyone should be really asking if they want to know the truth. The truth is not afraid of questions.
He gets into the scripture as well. He talks about how all will turn back to God, all will bow and praise Him, God wants all to be saved, etc. He talks about the hell and aion mistranslations (just a tiny bit). For more detail of that kind you may be better served by Hope Beyond Hell or something like L. Ray Smith's papers.
Anyway like I said I think I will read it again. Reading it in bed, sometimes I've drifted off asleep halfway through a chapter - LOL so it didn't all sink in on the first reading.
He is speaking more abstract than absolute. I don't think he was saying they are exclusive. (also remember I was just paraphrasing so don't take anything I said as exact quotes).
Some people choose to have a hellish life - become addicted to drugs, alcohol, live a terrible life, whatever.
Others are put into a hellish situation through no fault of their own. War, abuse, etc.
But we all have choices. We can choose to return eye for an eye. Hate our enemies. Never forgiving, always seeking revenge. We can choose to reach out or close off.
Or we can choose love. We can choose to forgive.
Likewise, those who see the potential light of Christ also have a choice. We can choose to hide the light, separate ourselves, thank god we are not one of "those" people who are in whatever hellish scenario you can think of. Or we can reach out. We can forgive. We can be the example of how to love one another.
Does love win or not?
Certainly God influences us here. So will God leave people in these abusive and terrible situations, ultimately leaving them in a place to be tortured for ever? Or is God's love so encompassing that it can work the heart of the victim and the abuser so that both would be healed and reconciled?
There is alot more going on here than simply saying those people "chose to go to hell for eternity" but "thank god I'm not one of them because I made the right choice".
Thanks, legoman! I've been wanting to get the book, but I didn't want to read it only to be disappointed if he said "all paths lead to God," but it didn't sound that way from the video.
If God is love, then Jesus is love, and love wins, then love will overcome and encompass all.
I think that is what he is saying. So its not an "all paths lead to God" message. Its the message that Jesus wins, all will come.
To be honest, Rob leaves a lot of open questions for you to figure out. Not sure if that helps or not.
A large part of the issue with traditional church doctrine is they believe love can only overcome in this earthly life. After that love doesn't work anymore (or isn't available) and now its too late - you had your chance. From what I read, Rob doesn't believe that. God's love will keep on keeping on, never failing, until the last sheep is found.
In a way I think I do have a bit of mixed feelings over the book, as some things are more abstract and not stated plainly. But they can be inferred from all the questions raised.
A question is just a question, but it can also make a statement as well, if you know what I mean.
Other things he says, like "I believe in heaven and hell" - yes, but he is not talking about the traditional hell of everlasting torment. I think he says he is not a universalist specifically so not to be labeled the "any path to heaven" guy. Yet many people would equate "universalist" = "all are going to be saved", which I'm pretty sure is what Rob believes here.
Perhaps the whole point of the book is to get you to think about these things for yourself.
In a way I think I do have a bit of mixed feelings over the book, as some things are more abstract and not stated plainly. But they can be inferred from all the questions raised.
A question is just a question, but it can also make a statement as well, if you know what I mean.
Other things he says, like "I believe in heaven and hell" - yes, but he is not talking about the traditional hell of everlasting torment. I think he says he is not a universalist specifically so not to be labeled the "any path to heaven" guy. Yet many people would equate "universalist" = "all are going to be saved", which I'm pretty sure is what Rob believes here.
Perhaps the whole point of the book is to get you to think about these things for yourself.
This is why I want to read it again.
I have read most of Rob Bell's books, seen most of his NOOMA videos, heard him speak on some occasions, etc, so, being familiar with him and his style, I can definitely tell you... he is always somewhat abstract, and the point of the book is DEFINITELY to get you to think about these things for yourself.
My thoughts on what he believes concerning heaven and hell? He's very vague on if he believes in Hell as a place. To the extent that I am not certain if he believes that it is or not. As for Heaven, he talks about heaven being a present state and a future reality (not an exact quote, but more or less what he says). This along with some other statements he makes, mainly concerning Heaven/the Kingdom of God coming to earth seem to imply that he does believe Heaven is an actual place, and not just something to be experienced now. In fact if he doesn't believe this it would seem that there was nothing to argue and so the book would have been pointless to write.
And I agree with you that when he says he is not a universalist, he is saying that he does not believe that all beliefs are equally valid and that there are many ways to get to Heaven. He states quite plainly that it is only through Christ that man is redeemed. In a certain sense he may be a universalist, but that term definitely carries a lot of connotations that are untrue of what Bell believes.
He is speaking more abstract than absolute. I don't think he was saying they are exclusive. (also remember I was just paraphrasing so don't take anything I said as exact quotes).
Some people choose to have a hellish life - become addicted to drugs, alcohol, live a terrible life, whatever.
Others are put into a hellish situation through no fault of their own. War, abuse, etc.
But we all have choices. We can choose to return eye for an eye. Hate our enemies. Never forgiving, always seeking revenge. We can choose to reach out or close off.
Or we can choose love. We can choose to forgive.
Okay, not to be nitpicky, but I sorta have issues with this. I think when someone participates in (and don't we all to one degree or another) and/or gets addicted to any harmful behavior (whether it's something one does or an attitude one nurtures), while on one level it may be a choice, on a deeper level, it's not. It's an outworking of wrong thinking about themselves which usually is wrought through the actions/words of others.
I think people need to be healed of that wrong thinking before you (oops, I meant "we" ) can say they are really making a choice. Does that make sense?
Quote:
There is alot more going on here than simply saying those people "chose to go to hell for eternity" but "thank god I'm not one of them because I made the right choice".
And with that I completely agree, whether one believes hell is here and now (as I do) or in the hereafter, I would hope we could all see that no one would CHOOSE to be there. I used to believe they did , but that's because I was unaware that I was in one of the deeper levels of hell myself (believing all kinds of untrue and unhealthy things about myself and others), and not thinking straight at the time.
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) can say they are really making a choice. Does that make sense? 
, but that's because I was unaware that I was in one of the deeper levels of hell myself (believing all kinds of untrue and unhealthy things about myself and others), and not thinking straight at the time.
