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Old 04-06-2011, 05:11 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,801,378 times
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Which is right? Are we declared righteous by faith or by works?

For those who are attempting it through the law:

A: by faith
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

A:“The work of God is this: ........... to believe in the one he has sent.”
"that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
---------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus didn't reveal:
"that whoever believes in him and obey some the law then they shall not perish but have eternal life."
or
"that whoever believes in him and do some works then they shall not perish but have eternal life."


Last edited by twin.spin; 04-06-2011 at 05:24 PM..
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:19 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
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We are justified by the blood of the Lamb. Both OT and NT believers were justified by faith in the shed blood of the sacrifice. The Jew looking forward, the Christian looking back.
In the day of judgement we will not be judged by our confession of faith, because men lie. We will be judged by our works, which are the evidence of true faith.

Re 2:2 I know thy works,

Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Re 2:9 I know thy works,

Re 2:13 I know thy works

Re 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Re 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Re 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Re 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Re 3:8 I know thy works:

Re 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

These scriptures are not talking about rewards for good deeds, they speak of works being the arbiter of our eternal destiny.
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:20 PM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

A:“The work of God is this: ........... to believe in the one he has sent.”
Exactly Jesus Christ who the scriptures testify of,not the scriptures the one the scriptures testify of and not the Lutheran creed too.
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:28 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Exactly Jesus Christ who the scriptures testify of,not the scriptures the one the scriptures testify of and not the Lutheran creed too.
We find those truths only in the written word, the Bible ...which the creeds testify to.
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:42 PM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
We find those truths only in the written word, the Bible ...which the creeds testify to.
There is no such thing as truths.............Jesus Christ IS the truth. If you have seen me you have seen the Truth.Scriptures testify to THE TRUTH, which IS Jesus Christ.

The reason we have all the denominations is because of all the different beliefs that supposedly are truths.
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:55 PM
 
Location: New England
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For them that are believing ......It was because of him and it still is. There's no boasting i sought,found and chose him and there's no boasting i am obedient,it's no longer I but Christ.

1 Cor 1:29-31 so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
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Old 04-06-2011, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
We find those truths only in the written word, the Bible ...which the creeds testify to.
The Creeds testify only to what the men who wrote them believed. They certainly don't add any clarity to the biblical message.
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Old 04-06-2011, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
You made the claim that no one could argue against the Romans bible verse that you think PROVES that salvation is strictly by works. All that I was trying to do, in what little knowledge that God has given me in regard to this topic, was show you how you were basically taking those verses OUT OF CONTEXT.
But you failed to. You didn't show me how they were taken out of context. They are NOT out of context. Salvation IS to receive Eternal Life and Immortality. Paul says that WORKS are indeed the basis for rendering that Eternal Life and Immortality. That IS Salvation.

Quote:
I have read your previous post when you stated that salvation is not based on OUR works, and I AGREE WITH YOU HERE. Also, you said that you believe and indeed are confident that Paul is indeed teaching that we are saved by works, but not of OUR Works. Okay no problem with that statement either. You said that you believe that Jesus Christ has a copyright on GOOD Works (Do unto others as you would have done unto you). So if a person does GOOD Works then he can't boast because those works are NOT his works. When you understand it this way you can see that it doesn't contradict any scriptures. In fact you can then see why Paul had to qualify some things he stated such as this:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

I will just say this. As long as we put our trust in what Jesus did for us, and not put our trust in doing good works to be saved, then Jesus' death for all of us is only sufficient for us to be saved from God's wrath and eternal judgment.
We can't merely trust Jesus - we must have Jesus in us doing kindness and goodness to those that HATE us and Persecute us. Remember 'what reward have you if you love those that love you?'. We must LOVE those that HATE US AND PERSECUTE US. That is His Works. I can trust Jesus all day long but if I don't love those that hate me then I'm not walking under the unbrella of His salvation.

I am not trying to be argumentive but constructive.
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Mechanicsville, VA
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Paul is also very Confused about Works and Faith!

In the first Chapter of Romans, Paul makes the case that the Gentiles have sinned. In the second, he argues that the Jews have and in the third Chapter he proclaims that everyone is guilty of sin and summarizes in Rom 3:28 “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the DEEDS of the law.” This is the classic Christian Doctrine of being saved by Faith. This is not what bothers me.

Now look at what Paul just finished writing in Rom 2:13“For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” So those who “do” the Law are (or shall be) Justified. Also in Philippians 2:12 Paul writes “… but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” These last two verses are more consistent with the admonishments of Jesus’ brother, James where he writes in James 1:22, ”But be ye DOERS of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves” In fact, in Romans 2:14-15 Paul writes concerning the Gentiles,“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, DO by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shows the WORK of the law written in their (gentile) hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another”.

So Paul and others also write that one can be justified by “Doing”.

I have often thought if Paul really wrote the Epistles for which he is given credit (only 7 are undisputed) and he knew that they would be used to start a New World Religion, he would have been more careful about what he was actually writing!

I know we can all be incoherent at times and I don’t think Paul was any different. Or maybe what Paul wrote got modified and the redactors overlooked this little detail.
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:03 AM
 
3,344 posts, read 5,624,918 times
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
But you failed to. You didn't show me how they were taken out of context. They are NOT out of context. Salvation IS to receive Eternal Life and Immortality. Paul says that WORKS are indeed the basis for rendering that Eternal Life and Immortality. That IS Salvation.



We can't merely trust Jesus - we must have Jesus in us doing kindness and goodness to those that HATE us and Persecute us. Remember 'what reward have you if you love those that love you?'. We must LOVE those that HATE US AND PERSECUTE US. That is His Works. I can trust Jesus all day long but if I don't love those that hate me then I'm not walking under the unbrella of His salvation.

I am not trying to be argumentive but constructive.
I don't see you as being argumentative---probably defensive of your position on Romans. But if I am understanding you correctly, the works that you are talking about is not our works but the works that Jesus, through our faith in Him, causes us to do as a result of it. If that's what you are saying, then I agree with you. If you are not saying that, then you are contradicting Paul's statements in Ephesians 4.

I have to disagree with your definition of what salvation is. The bible doesn't teach that Salvation is to receive Eternal Life and Immortality. Christians work or do good deeds out of what God and Jesus has done for them in their lives.

Salvation is being saved from the righteous judgment of God upon the sinner.

A lot of people think that salvation means being saved from yourself or the devil. But that is not the correct interpretation. All who have sinned against God are under the judgment of God, and that means YOU, ME, ALL OF US. This judgment is known as damnation where God condemns to eternal hell all those who have offended Him by breaking His Law.

This does not mean that God is unfair, and this is where people think that they have to some how keep doing good deeds in order to be fairly selected for Salvation----hint hint WORKS SALVATION. God is holy, AND HE EXPECTS US TO BE HOLY AS WELL. In order for us to be holy, we have to become born again, where our old nature has died, and we have become new creations or creatures through our faith in Jesus Christ. Now our holiness just doesn't happen by osmosis, and I agree that we must WORK AT BECOMING HOLY BY studying God's word, meditating on His Word, willing over to God any sins, bad thoughts, bad habits that are not pleasing to God, and simply trusting solely on Jesus with the Holy Spirit's help to live as humanly holy as we can live until we die.

With that said, God must punish the sinner. But, He has provided a way of escape so that people will not face His righteous judgment. This means that God is both holy and loving. He must manifest each quality equally. So, being saved from the wrath of God is called salvation.

Salvation is found ONLY in Jesus NOT ANYONE ELSE INCLUDING OURSELVES AS SOME WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT THEY CAN DO THROUGH THEIR DEEDS OR WORKS. Jesus, who is God in flesh (John 1:1,14), and who died for our sins and rose from the dead. 1 Cor. 15:1-4 says...

"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"

This is how salvation works: All of us have sinned against God and deserve judgment. But Jesus never sinned (1 Pet. 2:22). He lived the Law of God perfectly. In this He has a perfectly righteous standing before God. When the corrupt Jewish leaders forced Rome's hand into crucifying Jesus, God used this crucifixion as the means to place the sins of the world upon Jesus (1 Pet. 2:24; 1 John 2:2). This is when Jesus became sin on our behalf. So even when we mess up, we can have the penalty of sin washed away or forgiven every time we do stumble and fall. Thank God for His Grace and Mercy that brought me through.
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