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Old 04-07-2011, 12:11 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,795,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
The Creeds testify only to what the men who wrote them believed. They certainly don't add any clarity to the biblical message.
Not so sure about that. They were produced to refute the false teachings the were emerging. The Apostles Creed, Athenians was for the belief of the trinity

The Apostles creed for example is completely based of statements of faith taken from truths of the Bible.

1. I believe in God ... Isaiah 44:6; 45:5
2. the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth ... Genesis 1:1; John 1:1-3; Acts 14:15
3.And in Jesus Christ ... Luke 2:11; John 20:28
4.His only Son ... John 3:16; Proverbs 30:4
5. our Lord ... John 20:28
6. who was conceived by the Holy Spirit ... Luke 1:35
7. born of the virgin Mary ... Luke 1:27
8. suffered under Pontius Pilate ... Luke 23:23-25
9. was crucified ... John 19:20; Acts 4:10; (all Gospels)
10. dead ... 1 Corinthians 15:3
11. and buried ... 1 Corinthians 15:4
12. He descended into Hell ... 1 Peter 3:18; Luke 23:43
13. On the third day ... 1 Corinthians 15:4; Luke 18:33
14. He arose from the dead ... 1 Corinthians 15:4; Luke 24:46
15. He ascended into Heaven .... Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51, Acts 1:11
16. and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.... Mark 16:19; Hebrews 1:3
17. From there He will come to judge the living and the dead ... 2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:22
18. I believe in the Holy Spirit ... John 15:26; 16:7-8, 13-14; Acts 13:2
19. the Holy Christian church ... Galatians 3:26-29
20. the communion of saints ... Revelation 19:14; Hebrews 10:25
21. the forgiveness of sins ... Luke 7:48
22. the resurrection of the body ... 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 6:39
23. and life everlasting ... John 10:28; 17:2-3
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:25 AM
 
3,343 posts, read 5,621,452 times
Reputation: 1519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Antredd and trettep, have either one of you considered the possibility that there is a difference between justification and sanctification, both of which could be considered salvation. If you were to seriously give the distinction some thought, you might find that your disagreement is not as great as you think it is.
What is justification?
What is sanctification?

One says that all Christians are DECLARED Righteous the moment we accept Jesus as our personal savior, and the other says that we are separated unto God when we are born of God. Sounds like all we have to do is believe first, and let God do the rest as we work at being righteous ( through prayer and intense bible study) and by working at it along the way with God's and the Holy Spirit's help.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:21 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 7,053,018 times
Reputation: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiknapster View Post
My mother is a staunch Lutheran. As such, she is firmly against good works. She mocks Roman Catholics for their good deeds and feels that they are very misguided.

She believes that because of the blood of Jesus she will get into heaven. End of story. She believes in Jesus and because of his crucifixion and resurrection she will not go to hell, as long as she believes.

All well and good.

But she is also one of the most miserable people on the planet. She has never helped anyone in her life including her own flesh and blood. Her ex-husband, my father, is the same way. They are both truly miserable people. I have seen neither one of them be kind to anyone, ever.

My mother once saw a woman pull off the side of the road and hit a tree. It was a back road and no one was around. There was a little girl in the car, about my age at the time. I'd say 8 or 9. The child looked panicked and the mother was slumped over the wheel. My mother kept going. I yelled for her to stop. But my mother was on her way to Lenten services.

The next morning she told me she heard on the local radio that the woman had died. She had a heart attack.

Maybe we could or couldn't have saved the woman but surely we could have at least comforted the little girl and went for help.

And she told me the story like she did nothing wrong.

But that is the way of my parents. They see nothing wrong with their behavior. Nothing. Yes, they are cold but if you don't like it, then tough.

They have shut the door in my face - their only child - and their grandchildren. I called this past fall to tell my mother that she had a great grandchild and she acted put out that I would bother her with this information.

I didn't even bother telling my father. He hasn't bothered with his grandchildren in years. He'd be hard-pressed to name them, I think. He's had one child - me - and cannot tell you my birthday.

I know that this is hard for people to digest, but it is true.

Meanwhile, my father has been an assistant minister, a Sunday school superintendent and now that he is retired, the chaplain to a nursing home. But he fights with cashiers, talks about everyone behind their backs and is miserable in general. That man is pure evil. He beat my mother and me relentlessly while I was growing up.

My mother has been a Sunday school teacher most of her adult life. Yet, she gets out of church and talks about everyone in church.

To hear them, everyone is going to hell but them. They have a bad word for everyone.

But they rest easy in the fact that they are going to heaven. All they have to do is believe. It sometimes seems like they actually gloat about this.

I finally became agnostic a couple of years ago. I will be 50 at the end of this year and I am surprised it took me this long. I so wanted to believe but after watching these two and their horrific ways I cannot and do not want to deal with a religion that allows people to be nasty and as long as they believe they will get into heaven.

I have had people tell me that they really break the spirit of Christianity by being this way. That this is not what God intended. But my parents say this is wrong. Do-gooders will go to hell. They, who truly believe, are going to heaven.

It hasn't helped, either, that over the years I have found that some of the most sanctimonious Christians have been the most cruel.

I don't know. I just became disenchanted with everything.

It really is true that as long as you believe you are going to go to heaven and there seems to be so many that use that to their advantage. I think there is something very flawed with that.

I've since done a lot of research on Christianity. I really feel that The Bible and the religion is just a license to be nasty to everyone else while excusing bad behavior or worse.
Wow, I really felt your story in my heart - I'm sorry you had to experience all that. Here is a big old virtual hug... (m m)
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
24,109 posts, read 24,564,479 times
Reputation: 11702
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Not so sure about that. They were produced to refute the false teachings the were emerging. The Apostles Creed, Athenians was for the belief of the trinity

The Apostles creed for example is completely based of statements of faith taken from truths of the Bible.

1. I believe in God ... Isaiah 44:6; 45:5
2. the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth ... Genesis 1:1; John 1:1-3; Acts 14:15
3.And in Jesus Christ ... Luke 2:11; John 20:28
4.His only Son ... John 3:16; Proverbs 30:4
5. our Lord ... John 20:28
6. who was conceived by the Holy Spirit ... Luke 1:35
7. born of the virgin Mary ... Luke 1:27
8. suffered under Pontius Pilate ... Luke 23:23-25
9. was crucified ... John 19:20; Acts 4:10; (all Gospels)
10. dead ... 1 Corinthians 15:3
11. and buried ... 1 Corinthians 15:4
12. He descended into Hell ... 1 Peter 3:18; Luke 23:43
13. On the third day ... 1 Corinthians 15:4; Luke 18:33
14. He arose from the dead ... 1 Corinthians 15:4; Luke 24:46
15. He ascended into Heaven .... Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51, Acts 1:11
16. and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.... Mark 16:19; Hebrews 1:3
17. From there He will come to judge the living and the dead ... 2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:22
18. I believe in the Holy Spirit ... John 15:26; 16:7-8, 13-14; Acts 13:2
19. the Holy Christian church ... Galatians 3:26-29
20. the communion of saints ... Revelation 19:14; Hebrews 10:25
21. the forgiveness of sins ... Luke 7:48
22. the resurrection of the body ... 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 6:39
23. and life everlasting ... John 10:28; 17:2-3
Actually, I really have no significant disagreement with the wording of the Nicene Creed, although it seems pretty much unnecessary since it would be quite simple to come to the same understanding of God by simply reading the Bible. The Athanasian Creed, on the other hand, reads like it was written by somebody at the IRS.

Aside from a couple of very minor issues with a couple of the points (hardly worth bringing up), the only point I would really question is how the Son could be sitting on the right hand of God if they are one and the same. If you want to discuss that point, though, this thread probably isn't the right place for us to do so.

At any rate, it's not so much the Nicene Creed itself as it is the way it came to be written and the way in which dissenters were treated that bothers me.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:28 AM
 
Location: The Conterminous United States
22,576 posts, read 49,513,598 times
Reputation: 13508
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Wow, I really felt your story in my heart - I'm sorry you had to experience all that. Here is a big old virtual hug... (m m)
Thank you.

Isn't it sad, what is going on here?

"Forgive them Father. They know not what they do."
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:30 AM
 
Location: New England
34,706 posts, read 23,109,045 times
Reputation: 2548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Actually, I really have no significant disagreement with the wording of the Nicene Creed, although it seems pretty much unnecessary since it would be quite simple to come to the same understanding of God by simply reading the Bible. The Athanasian Creed, on the other hand, reads like it was written by somebody at the IRS.

Aside from a couple of very minor issues with a couple of the points (hardly worth bringing up), the only point I would really question is how the Son could be sitting on the right hand of God if they are one and the same. If you want to discuss that point, though, this thread probably isn't the right place for us to do so.

At any rate, it's not so much the Nicene Creed itself as it is the way it came to be written and the way in which dissenters were treated that bothers me.
There's no greater statement of faith than "Christ in you". The Christ of the Living God made manifest in our lives. But man loves what is written ink and wants what they can see written in ink to be their guide.

Buy the truth and sell it not Proverbs 23:23 . When we invest our thoughts on the things of God we are buying wisely, because it will always bring a return.

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
Phil 4:8-9

Last edited by pcamps; 04-07-2011 at 11:52 AM..
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
24,109 posts, read 24,564,479 times
Reputation: 11702
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
What is justification?
What is sanctification?
From the website, The Distinction Between Justification and Sanctification:

Justification Is the judicial act of God alone, alone outside the sinner; but in Christ (Isaiah. 53:11; Romans 5:8-9; 2 Corinthians: 5:19).

Sanctification Is that act of God within the sinner in which God works with the new man in a life-long process of restoration (Phillipians 2:12-13; 3:12; Colossians 3:2-5; Titus 2:11-12).

(Incidentally, this link is not to an LDS website, so there's no reason for anybody to simply dismiss what I'm saying as being some crazy Mormon doctrine.)

My point in bringing up the two words is that it is a lot easier to reconcile the dilemma between whether salvation is by faith alone or by faith as demonstrated by works when you understand the concepts of justification and justification. Justification is by grace alone, while sanctification is by a combination of grace and works. So, we believe that we are justified regardless of our works, but sancified through a combination of grace and works.
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:04 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,795,834 times
Reputation: 1313
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiknapster View Post
My mother is a staunch Lutheran. As such, she is firmly against good works. She mocks Roman Catholics for their good deeds and feels that they are very misguided.

She believes that because of the blood of Jesus she will get into heaven. End of story. She believes in Jesus and because of his crucifixion and resurrection she will not go to hell, as long as she believes.

All well and good.

But she is also one of the most miserable people on the planet. She has never helped anyone in her life including her own flesh and blood. Her ex-husband, my father, is the same way. They are both truly miserable people. I have seen neither one of them be kind to anyone, ever.

My mother once saw a woman pull off the side of the road and hit a tree. It was a back road and no one was around. There was a little girl in the car, about my age at the time. I'd say 8 or 9. The child looked panicked and the mother was slumped over the wheel. My mother kept going. I yelled for her to stop. But my mother was on her way to Lenten services.

The next morning she told me she heard on the local radio that the woman had died. She had a heart attack.

Maybe we could or couldn't have saved the woman but surely we could have at least comforted the little girl and went for help.

And she told me the story like she did nothing wrong.

But that is the way of my parents. They see nothing wrong with their behavior. Nothing. Yes, they are cold but if you don't like it, then tough.

They have shut the door in my face - their only child - and their grandchildren. I called this past fall to tell my mother that she had a great grandchild and she acted put out that I would bother her with this information.

I didn't even bother telling my father. He hasn't bothered with his grandchildren in years. He'd be hard-pressed to name them, I think. He's had one child - me - and cannot tell you my birthday.

I know that this is hard for people to digest, but it is true.

Meanwhile, my father has been an assistant minister, a Sunday school superintendent and now that he is retired, the chaplain to a nursing home. But he fights with cashiers, talks about everyone behind their backs and is miserable in general. That man is pure evil. He beat my mother and me relentlessly while I was growing up.

My mother has been a Sunday school teacher most of her adult life. Yet, she gets out of church and talks about everyone in church.

To hear them, everyone is going to hell but them. They have a bad word for everyone.

But they rest easy in the fact that they are going to heaven. All they have to do is believe. It sometimes seems like they actually gloat about this.

I finally became agnostic a couple of years ago. I will be 50 at the end of this year and I am surprised it took me this long. I so wanted to believe but after watching these two and their horrific ways I cannot and do not want to deal with a religion that allows people to be nasty and as long as they believe they will get into heaven.

I have had people tell me that they really break the spirit of Christianity by being this way. That this is not what God intended. But my parents say this is wrong. Do-gooders will go to hell. They, who truly believe, are going to heaven.

It hasn't helped, either, that over the years I have found that some of the most sanctimonious Christians have been the most cruel.

I don't know. I just became disenchanted with everything.

It really is true that as long as you believe you are going to go to heaven and there seems to be so many that use that to their advantage. I think there is something very flawed with that.

I've since done a lot of research on Christianity. I really feel that The Bible and the religion is just a license to be nasty to everyone else while excusing bad behavior or worse.
That is unfortunate about the memories \ situations of the things that happened. No child or wife should be mistreated...ever. But you know what, some of the most unsavory characters in the Bible, were also the most grateful..
It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Consider:
Noah got drunk
Rahab was a prostitute Joshua 2:1
King David was a murderer and adulterer
Saul (Paul) ... the notorious persecuter and wrongful convictions
Peter ... who openly tried to stop Jesus from being arrested, openly denied Jesus 3 times


I can understan being disenchanted with everything. However, there is one example that comes to mind whom God greatly blessed despite less than idea parents. For instance:
Jephthah was a mighty warrior... his mother was a prostitute. Judges 11:1

Satan wants you to become disenchanted with everything.
God says just the opposite: resist Satan's lie..you're not alone.
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7
Resist him [Satan], standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. 1 Peter 5:9






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Old 04-07-2011, 01:16 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,795,834 times
Reputation: 1313
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
What is justification?
What is sanctification?
The correct scriptural understanding about the difference between justification vs sanctification is:
  • Justification is what God has done for us by his grace through the merits of Christ
Sanctification is what God continues to do in us as he daily calls believers out of this dark world, turns us away from the temptations of the flesh, and shuts our ears to the seductions of Satan.
---------------------------------------------------------------
  • Justification is finished, accomplished forever by the completed sacrifice of Jesus.
Sanctification is ongoing and incomplete, as the Spirit continually works in believing hearts a life of devotion and thanksgiving.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
  • God’s justification caused our salvation
God’s sanctification is a consequence of our salvation, flowing naturally from our connection with Christ.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
  • Justification is the result of God’s exclusive work for us in Christ; there is no human participation whatsoever.
Sanctification is the result of the Holy Spirit’s work in believers’ hearts, which produces a new creation made in God’s image.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  • Justification has given us a new status before God
Sanctification gives us a new life with God.
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Old 04-07-2011, 01:39 PM
 
889 posts, read 712,364 times
Reputation: 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
The Bible says: "A man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law." It also says: "A man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone." Which is right? Are we declared righteous by faith or by works? Romans 3:28; James 2:24.

Before I attempt to answer this question for you to agree or disagree with me, we need to look at James 2:24 in its context. James 2:14-24 says:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:14 begins a new paragraph and addresses the matter of those who say they have faith but their faith does not produce any fruit or works in their lives. This shows the context or subject of the paragraph. Also, James further explains the subject by his statement in verse 18, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." This is the key to interpreting the passage.

This now makes interpreting the verse simple. Here, James says that if a person says he has true saving faith, his faith will produce works in his life. You will be able to see his faith in action.

Justification spoken of in the verse is not salvation, but justifying one calling himself a Christian and claiming to have saving faith when he is not living for the Lord. In other words if a man says he is saved and does not show any outward evidence of salvation, then his salvation is in doubt because it produces no works or result in the man's life.

A person who has saving faith and works is publicly justified in claiming to be have faith and be saved. His works show his faith. The one who has no works, whether he is saved or not, is not justified in outwardly saying he has saving faith, because his lack of works does not justify his assertion.

The Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by faith alone apart from works. Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

John 3:15-16, 36 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:15-16, 36.

James finishes the paragraph in Chapter 2 by saying "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). Something that is dead is not alive and clearly God is saying that a person who, as a pattern of life, has no works does not appear to have saving faith. That is the point of this passage. This is certainly not teaching that a person must add works to faith to be saved. Futhermore, it is teaching the result of faith which is works. Thus, James gives us the way of authenticating true saving faith. He is not teaching that salvation is faith plus works. He is giving us the justification for calling ourselves Christians.

After reading James 2: 24 in its context, it does not conflict with Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Salvation then is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. No one can work for salvation or even earn it. Only Jesus Christ is righteous and can save. But also, the moment we add works for salvation, then there's no need for Jesus dying for us because we are placing ourselves on the cross.

Salvation which means paying our sin debt is something only Jesus could do. No one can justify himself or add his works to the work of Christ and justify Himself. The following passage clearly proves this fact of doctrine. Salvation is by faith alone in the finished and complete atonement by Jesus Christ.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Romans 3:21-25).
I don't believe the word "works" mean the same thing in those two bible passages. The first one is about Jewish works such as circumcision or eating practices while the James meaning of works is about helping your fellow man. So both are correct.
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