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Old 04-09-2011, 05:31 AM
Status: "Welcome to Orwell's 1984 -- Make Orwell Fiction Again!!" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Correct answer is an emphatic, "YES, BOTH."

Works without faith in God doesn't get you there and we all know that. Faith without works simply isn't faith, it's something else. Empty belief, hypocrisy, lip service, take your pick. For belief to actually become faith, you have to be an active doer of the word.
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:34 AM
 
3,344 posts, read 5,627,151 times
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Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Correct answer is an emphatic, "YES, BOTH."

Works without faith in God doesn't get you there and we all know that. Faith without works simply isn't faith, it's something else. Empty belief, hypocrisy, lip service, take your pick. For belief to actually become faith, you have to be an active doer of the word.
I agree with you. God does His part to save us so that we can do our part to Glorify Him.
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by antredd View Post
The Bible says: "A man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law." It also says: "A man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone." Which is right? Are we declared righteous by faith or by works? Romans 3:28; James 2:24.

Before I attempt to answer this question for you to agree or disagree with me, we need to look at James 2:24 in its context. James 2:14-24 says:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:14 begins a new paragraph and addresses the matter of those who say they have faith but their faith does not produce any fruit or works in their lives. This shows the context or subject of the paragraph. Also, James further explains the subject by his statement in verse 18, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." This is the key to interpreting the passage.

This now makes interpreting the verse simple. Here, James says that if a person says he has true saving faith, his faith will produce works in his life. You will be able to see his faith in action.

Justification spoken of in the verse is not salvation, but justifying one calling himself a Christian and claiming to have saving faith when he is not living for the Lord. In other words if a man says he is saved and does not show any outward evidence of salvation, then his salvation is in doubt because it produces no works or result in the man's life.

A person who has saving faith and works is publicly justified in claiming to be have faith and be saved. His works show his faith. The one who has no works, whether he is saved or not, is not justified in outwardly saying he has saving faith, because his lack of works does not justify his assertion.

The Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by faith alone apart from works. Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

John 3:15-16, 36 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:15-16, 36.

James finishes the paragraph in Chapter 2 by saying "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). Something that is dead is not alive and clearly God is saying that a person who, as a pattern of life, has no works does not appear to have saving faith. That is the point of this passage. This is certainly not teaching that a person must add works to faith to be saved. Futhermore, it is teaching the result of faith which is works. Thus, James gives us the way of authenticating true saving faith. He is not teaching that salvation is faith plus works. He is giving us the justification for calling ourselves Christians.

After reading James 2: 24 in its context, it does not conflict with Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Salvation then is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. No one can work for salvation or even earn it. Only Jesus Christ is righteous and can save. But also, the moment we add works for salvation, then there's no need for Jesus dying for us because we are placing ourselves on the cross.

Salvation which means paying our sin debt is something only Jesus could do. No one can justify himself or add his works to the work of Christ and justify Himself. The following passage clearly proves this fact of doctrine. Salvation is by faith alone in the finished and complete atonement by Jesus Christ.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Romans 3:21-25).
If you mean "works" as defined by works of the law, or good deeds, then I totally agree with you. These kinds of works do not save.

However, there are "works" of God as well. Faith, repentance, and baptism are works of God. This is what saves us, the work of God. We must humble ourselves before Him, and obey his commands. Then and only then are we saved.

Katie
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Old 04-09-2011, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
If you mean "works" as defined by works of the law, or good deeds, then I totally agree with you. These kinds of works do not save.

However, there are "works" of God as well. Faith, repentance, and baptism are works of God. This is what saves us, the work of God. We must humble ourselves before Him, and obey his commands. Then and only then are we saved.

Katie
I don't believe that we will be saved by doing a specified number of "good deeds"; being saved is, after all, not like passing off requirements for a scouting merit badge. On the other hand, here's what Matthew 25:31-46 has to say about the subject:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If the those He names as "sheep" will "inherit the kingdom... [and] life eternal" and those he names as "goats" will "go away into everlasting punishment," the way we treat our fellow human beings seems to be very important to our Savior when it comes to our actually being judged.
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Old 04-09-2011, 06:28 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
234 posts, read 209,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I don't believe that we will be saved by doing a specified number of "good deeds"; being saved is, after all, not like passing off requirements for a scouting merit badge. On the other hand, here's what Matthew 25:31-46 has to say about the subject:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If the those He names as "sheep" will "inherit the kingdom... [and] life eternal" and those he names as "goats" will "go away into everlasting punishment," the way we treat our fellow human beings seems to be very important to our Savior when it comes to our actually being judged.
More than very important. Lets be straight here. Our love for our fellow man, or lack thereof, according to Jesus in the aforementioned parable, is the standard by which we are judged.
Elsewhere Jesus said that many shall come to Him in that day saying "Lord,Lord, we did all sorts of religious stuff so let us in too huh?"
Jesus said "Uh uh! Sorry, no way. Only those who do the will of My Father will be entering in here." Matt 7:21
And what is the will of God?

Mr 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mr 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ga 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Mt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus summed it all up by giving us what we now know as the "Golden Rule".
Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Note one very important point. The golden rule does not do away with the law and prophets, it is the law and prophets.
They are synonymous, as Paul intimated in Romans 13:9 above. One cannot claim to love without keeping the laws of God, and vice versa, one cannot obey God's commandments without love.
So if loving and keeping God's commandments are synonymous, and we are judged by this according to Jesus, then this goes a long way to explain why in these last days God divides those upon the earth into just two groups. One, those who receive the 'mark of the beast' and face the wrath of God, and those who are saved, "those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus." Revelation 12:17; 14:12.
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Old 04-11-2011, 12:45 AM
 
Location: The Conterminous United States
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Folks can do whatever gyrations they want - cut and paste and argue - but in the end, herein lies the truth.

And lots of people will agree and eagerly shake their heads and pay lip service. I've seen it thousands of times. But who among us lives this?

Quote:
Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
I've knocked on church doors and was turned away. I've stood in God's house and was shown the exit. I've asked and was mocked.

Some of the most sanctimonious will be laid low and if you think that is not you, could never be you, surely, you may want to take some personal inventory. Ever notice how many people read The Bible and think it pertains to their next door neighbor, their cousin and their third-grade teacher, but not them?





Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I don't believe that we will be saved by doing a specified number of "good deeds"; being saved is, after all, not like passing off requirements for a scouting merit badge. On the other hand, here's what Matthew 25:31-46 has to say about the subject:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If the those He names as "sheep" will "inherit the kingdom... [and] life eternal" and those he names as "goats" will "go away into everlasting punishment," the way we treat our fellow human beings seems to be very important to our Savior when it comes to our actually being judged.
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:29 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,282,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I don't believe that we will be saved by doing a specified number of "good deeds"; being saved is, after all, not like passing off requirements for a scouting merit badge. On the other hand, here's what Matthew 25:31-46 has to say about the subject:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If the those He names as "sheep" will "inherit the kingdom... [and] life eternal" and those he names as "goats" will "go away into everlasting punishment," the way we treat our fellow human beings seems to be very important to our Savior when it comes to our actually being judged.
I completely agree with you Katz. If the thread question is talking about initial salvation, then I believe that comes by obedient faith, not works of the law, or good works (good deeds). If the thread is talking living a christian life, then our good deeds is what we will be judged by. I hope this clears up what I said.
Kate
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:16 PM
 
3,344 posts, read 5,627,151 times
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Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
I completely agree with you Katz. If the thread question is talking about initial salvation, then I believe that comes by obedient faith, not works of the law, or good works (good deeds). If the thread is talking living a christian life, then our good deeds is what we will be judged by. I hope this clears up what I said.
Kate
I agree with you. But what is initial salvation? Are there stages? If so, can you give me Scriptures?
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:15 AM
 
Location: The Conterminous United States
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I'm not seeing stages. It's pretty clear.

Quote:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:00 AM
 
Location: New Zealand
234 posts, read 209,364 times
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Originally Posted by hiknapster View Post
Folks can do whatever gyrations they want - cut and paste and argue - but in the end, herein lies the truth.

And lots of people will agree and eagerly shake their heads and pay lip service. I've seen it thousands of times. But who among us lives this?



I've knocked on church doors and was turned away. I've stood in God's house and was shown the exit. I've asked and was mocked.

Some of the most sanctimonious will be laid low and if you think that is not you, could never be you, surely, you may want to take some personal inventory. Ever notice how many people read The Bible and think it pertains to their next door neighbor, their cousin and their third-grade teacher, but not them?
I said elsewhere, but I'll say it again; there will be 3 surprises when we get to heaven.
1. That I'll be there.
2. That there are many we thought would be that aren't.
3. There are many we thought didn't have a dog show, and are.

A sincere read of the letter to the church of the Laodiceans would go a long way to heal the maladies that afflict us all. Note that there are no doctrinal rebukes, the people addressed thought they had it all down. But Jesus view of their hearts revealed blindness, poverty, and shame. The remedy? Gold tried in the fire. In other words, character adjustment. The only thing from this world we will be taking with us when we die, our characters. Whatever character we develop now, that is what we will be judged by as to whether or not it is worthy of the company of angels and a Holy God.
Despite opinions to the contrary, there is no second chance. Now is the time for salvation.

Hiknapster, for a confessed agnostic, you have some very serious and wise counsel and insights. Any church that turned you away is worse off for your absence.
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