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Old 04-05-2011, 08:59 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 5,605,019 times
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The Bible says: "A man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law." It also says: "A man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone." Which is right? Are we declared righteous by faith or by works? Romans 3:28; James 2:24.

Before I attempt to answer this question for you to agree or disagree with me, we need to look at James 2:24 in its context. James 2:14-24 says:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:14 begins a new paragraph and addresses the matter of those who say they have faith but their faith does not produce any fruit or works in their lives. This shows the context or subject of the paragraph. Also, James further explains the subject by his statement in verse 18, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." This is the key to interpreting the passage.

This now makes interpreting the verse simple. Here, James says that if a person says he has true saving faith, his faith will produce works in his life. You will be able to see his faith in action.

Justification spoken of in the verse is not salvation, but justifying one calling himself a Christian and claiming to have saving faith when he is not living for the Lord. In other words if a man says he is saved and does not show any outward evidence of salvation, then his salvation is in doubt because it produces no works or result in the man's life.

A person who has saving faith and works is publicly justified in claiming to be have faith and be saved. His works show his faith. The one who has no works, whether he is saved or not, is not justified in outwardly saying he has saving faith, because his lack of works does not justify his assertion.

The Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by faith alone apart from works. Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

John 3:15-16, 36 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:15-16, 36.

James finishes the paragraph in Chapter 2 by saying "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). Something that is dead is not alive and clearly God is saying that a person who, as a pattern of life, has no works does not appear to have saving faith. That is the point of this passage. This is certainly not teaching that a person must add works to faith to be saved. Futhermore, it is teaching the result of faith which is works. Thus, James gives us the way of authenticating true saving faith. He is not teaching that salvation is faith plus works. He is giving us the justification for calling ourselves Christians.

After reading James 2: 24 in its context, it does not conflict with Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Salvation then is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. No one can work for salvation or even earn it. Only Jesus Christ is righteous and can save. But also, the moment we add works for salvation, then there's no need for Jesus dying for us because we are placing ourselves on the cross.

Salvation which means paying our sin debt is something only Jesus could do. No one can justify himself or add his works to the work of Christ and justify Himself. The following passage clearly proves this fact of doctrine. Salvation is by faith alone in the finished and complete atonement by Jesus Christ.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Romans 3:21-25).
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,763,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
The Bible says: "A man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law." It also says: "A man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone." Which is right? Are we declared righteous by faith or by works? Romans 3:28; James 2:24.

Before I attempt to answer this question for you to agree or disagree with me, we need to look at James 2:24 in its context. James 2:14-24 says:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:14 begins a new paragraph and addresses the matter of those who say they have faith but their faith does not produce any fruit or works in their lives. This shows the context or subject of the paragraph. Also, James further explains the subject by his statement in verse 18, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." This is the key to interpreting the passage.

This now makes interpreting the verse simple. Here, James says that if a person says he has true saving faith, his faith will produce works in his life. You will be able to see his faith in action.

Justification spoken of in the verse is not salvation, but justifying one calling himself a Christian and claiming to have saving faith when he is not living for the Lord. In other words if a man says he is saved and does not show any outward evidence of salvation, then his salvation is in doubt because it produces no works or result in the man's life.

A person who has saving faith and works is publicly justified in claiming to be have faith and be saved. His works show his faith. The one who has no works, whether he is saved or not, is not justified in outwardly saying he has saving faith, because his lack of works does not justify his assertion.

The Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by faith alone apart from works. Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

John 3:15-16, 36 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:15-16, 36.

James finishes the paragraph in Chapter 2 by saying "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). Something that is dead is not alive and clearly God is saying that a person who, as a pattern of life, has no works does not appear to have saving faith. That is the point of this passage. This is certainly not teaching that a person must add works to faith to be saved. Futhermore, it is teaching the result of faith which is works. Thus, James gives us the way of authenticating true saving faith. He is not teaching that salvation is faith plus works. He is giving us the justification for calling ourselves Christians.

After reading James 2: 24 in its context, it does not conflict with Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Salvation then is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. No one can work for salvation or even earn it. Only Jesus Christ is righteous and can save. But also, the moment we add works for salvation, then there's no need for Jesus dying for us because we are placing ourselves on the cross.

Salvation which means paying our sin debt is something only Jesus could do. No one can justify himself or add his works to the work of Christ and justify Himself. The following passage clearly proves this fact of doctrine. Salvation is by faith alone in the finished and complete atonement by Jesus Christ.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Romans 3:21-25).
Faith without works is dead antredd...James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Good works is Love manifested...Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us [His beloved Saints] in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love Psalm 51:10 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Good works is Faith manifested. 2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to all good works.

Good works is Belief manifested...John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Good works is Trust in His Word. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Good works is Righteousness manifested...Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which you have showed toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Good works is obeying the Ten Commandments...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
John 14:15-21
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15“If you love me, obey my commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate,e who will never leave you. 17He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.f 18No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you. 19Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live. 20When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

Good works is good fruit from a good tree...Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Good works is a godly thing...and brings glory to God...Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

True love of God is based upon good works...Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

We will be judged on that Day of our works while here on earth...indeed...2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad.


Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling.


Better get to work......!

In His unending love!
Verna!!!
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,125,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
The Bible says: "A man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law." It also says: "A man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone." Which is right? Are we declared righteous by faith or by works? Romans 3:28; James 2:24.

Before I attempt to answer this question for you to agree or disagree with me, we need to look at James 2:24 in its context. James 2:14-24 says:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:14 begins a new paragraph and addresses the matter of those who say they have faith but their faith does not produce any fruit or works in their lives. This shows the context or subject of the paragraph. Also, James further explains the subject by his statement in verse 18, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." This is the key to interpreting the passage.

This now makes interpreting the verse simple. Here, James says that if a person says he has true saving faith, his faith will produce works in his life. You will be able to see his faith in action.

Justification spoken of in the verse is not salvation, but justifying one calling himself a Christian and claiming to have saving faith when he is not living for the Lord. In other words if a man says he is saved and does not show any outward evidence of salvation, then his salvation is in doubt because it produces no works or result in the man's life.

A person who has saving faith and works is publicly justified in claiming to be have faith and be saved. His works show his faith. The one who has no works, whether he is saved or not, is not justified in outwardly saying he has saving faith, because his lack of works does not justify his assertion.

The Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by faith alone apart from works. Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

John 3:15-16, 36 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:15-16, 36.

James finishes the paragraph in Chapter 2 by saying "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). Something that is dead is not alive and clearly God is saying that a person who, as a pattern of life, has no works does not appear to have saving faith. That is the point of this passage. This is certainly not teaching that a person must add works to faith to be saved. Futhermore, it is teaching the result of faith which is works. Thus, James gives us the way of authenticating true saving faith. He is not teaching that salvation is faith plus works. He is giving us the justification for calling ourselves Christians.

After reading James 2: 24 in its context, it does not conflict with Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Salvation then is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. No one can work for salvation or even earn it. Only Jesus Christ is righteous and can save. But also, the moment we add works for salvation, then there's no need for Jesus dying for us because we are placing ourselves on the cross.

Salvation which means paying our sin debt is something only Jesus could do. No one can justify himself or add his works to the work of Christ and justify Himself. The following passage clearly proves this fact of doctrine. Salvation is by faith alone in the finished and complete atonement by Jesus Christ.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Romans 3:21-25).
It almost sounds like your batpist or something. They usually miss this one:

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Notice that? - Immortality and Eternal Life (SALVATION) is based upon WORKS!!!

So let's go back to what James said. James was saying that Faith without works is dead. So ask yourself - CAN DEAD FAITH SAVE YOU? - of course not.

But let's continue...

What did Paul ACTUALLY say about Abraham:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Notice that bolded part? - most people don't preach it or even understand what that means but it sets up the whole context for what follows it.

You see, if we say that Works are not required for salvation then we call Paul a liar because of Romans 2:6 and because of what James said about Faith and works. Yet if we say works are required we seem to be contradicting Paul on so many other verses.

So what is the answer? - Look closely and I challenge you to find a scripture that proves this wrong - but the answer is that the works that are required are NOT our works (which pertain to the flesh) but rather His works (the works of Christ being done through us towards others).

This is irrefutable and no scripture anyone can provide can refute it.

God bless you,

Paul
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:20 PM
 
Location: The Conterminous United States
22,576 posts, read 49,437,229 times
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My mother is a staunch Lutheran. As such, she is firmly against good works. She mocks Roman Catholics for their good deeds and feels that they are very misguided.

She believes that because of the blood of Jesus she will get into heaven. End of story. She believes in Jesus and because of his crucifixion and resurrection she will not go to hell, as long as she believes.

All well and good.

But she is also one of the most miserable people on the planet. She has never helped anyone in her life including her own flesh and blood. Her ex-husband, my father, is the same way. They are both truly miserable people. I have seen neither one of them be kind to anyone, ever.

My mother once saw a woman pull off the side of the road and hit a tree. It was a back road and no one was around. There was a little girl in the car, about my age at the time. I'd say 8 or 9. The child looked panicked and the mother was slumped over the wheel. My mother kept going. I yelled for her to stop. But my mother was on her way to Lenten services.

The next morning she told me she heard on the local radio that the woman had died. She had a heart attack.

Maybe we could or couldn't have saved the woman but surely we could have at least comforted the little girl and went for help.

And she told me the story like she did nothing wrong.

But that is the way of my parents. They see nothing wrong with their behavior. Nothing. Yes, they are cold but if you don't like it, then tough.

They have shut the door in my face - their only child - and their grandchildren. I called this past fall to tell my mother that she had a great grandchild and she acted put out that I would bother her with this information.

I didn't even bother telling my father. He hasn't bothered with his grandchildren in years. He'd be hard-pressed to name them, I think. He's had one child - me - and cannot tell you my birthday.

I know that this is hard for people to digest, but it is true.

Meanwhile, my father has been an assistant minister, a Sunday school superintendent and now that he is retired, the chaplain to a nursing home. But he fights with cashiers, talks about everyone behind their backs and is miserable in general. That man is pure evil. He beat my mother and me relentlessly while I was growing up.

My mother has been a Sunday school teacher most of her adult life. Yet, she gets out of church and talks about everyone in church.

To hear them, everyone is going to hell but them. They have a bad word for everyone.

But they rest easy in the fact that they are going to heaven. All they have to do is believe. It sometimes seems like they actually gloat about this.

I finally became agnostic a couple of years ago. I will be 50 at the end of this year and I am surprised it took me this long. I so wanted to believe but after watching these two and their horrific ways I cannot and do not want to deal with a religion that allows people to be nasty and as long as they believe they will get into heaven.

I have had people tell me that they really break the spirit of Christianity by being this way. That this is not what God intended. But my parents say this is wrong. Do-gooders will go to hell. They, who truly believe, are going to heaven.

It hasn't helped, either, that over the years I have found that some of the most sanctimonious Christians have been the most cruel.

I don't know. I just became disenchanted with everything.

It really is true that as long as you believe you are going to go to heaven and there seems to be so many that use that to their advantage. I think there is something very flawed with that.

I've since done a lot of research on Christianity. I really feel that The Bible and the religion is just a license to be nasty to everyone else while excusing bad behavior or worse.
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:28 AM
 
3,335 posts, read 5,605,019 times
Reputation: 1518
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
It almost sounds like your batpist or something. They usually miss this one:

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Notice that? - Immortality and Eternal Life (SALVATION) is based upon WORKS!!!

So let's go back to what James said. James was saying that Faith without works is dead. So ask yourself - CAN DEAD FAITH SAVE YOU? - of course not.

But let's continue...

What did Paul ACTUALLY say about Abraham:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Notice that bolded part? - most people don't preach it or even understand what that means but it sets up the whole context for what follows it.

You see, if we say that Works are not required for salvation then we call Paul a liar because of Romans 2:6 and because of what James said about Faith and works. Yet if we say works are required we seem to be contradicting Paul on so many other verses.

So what is the answer? - Look closely and I challenge you to find a scripture that proves this wrong - but the answer is that the works that are required are NOT our works (which pertain to the flesh) but rather His works (the works of Christ being done through us towards others).

This is irrefutable and no scripture anyone can provide can refute it.

God bless you,

Paul
It's interesting how you say that I sound like a Baptist. Does it really matter if I am a Baptist, Catholic, Mormon, or Seventh Day Adventist who has this interpretation? The bottom line is whether or not your or my interpretation is in line with what the entire BIBLE teaches on this very important topic.

In order to understand any bible verse, we all must consider the CONTEXT OF THOSE VERSES. If I read Romans 2:6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 out of the context of the flow of Paul's argument in the entire letter to the Romans, I might conclude and agree with you that Paul was teaching salvation by works.

These verses seem to say that those who do good works will thereby earn eternal life. However, after prayerfully reading and studying these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one is saved. What they do describe is how God judges mankind according to each person's deeds performed during the course of their life.

In Chapter 2, Paul is speaking about God's Righteous Judgement. Paul is quoting almost verbatim the Greek translation of the Hebrew (Septuagint) of Ps 62:12: and that to you, O Lord, belongs steadfast love. For you will render to a man according to his work.This verse would appeal to the Jew. In this Psalm, the psalmist’s enemies, while secretly plotting against him, professed to be his friends. He appeals to God, who, he declares, will recompense each according to his works. The passage refers evidently to Jewish enemies, and therefore implies that God will treat even Jews according to their deeds. Paul explains how and why God will judge, and how He can judge both Jew and Gentile and be completely fair in the process. The controlling principle will be according to deeds because deeds PROVES what is in the heart. It is an awesome and fearful thought that God will render to each one according to his deeds; this condemns the moralist as well as the obvious sinner.

Here are some passages that people who disagree with saved only by Grace use to support their view.

Titus 1:16 -- They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

James 2:14 -- What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
v. 17-18 -- Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
v. 26 -- For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Rev. 20:12 -- and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

While we know that it is by Grace that we are saved, works plays a role in how we will be judged. Our eternal reward will be based on how we live our lives through our works. With that said, it is also clear that simply living a good life will not get you into Heaven (and that is where I disagree with anyone who thinks that their righteousness automatically gets them a ticket into heaveN as if they don't need Jesus' sacrificial death for all our sins to be enough).

Only Jesus' Atonement is able to make up for our shortcomings and allow us to receive Eternal Life. Again the bible clearly teaches that we are saved by Grace, and because of God's Grace, as a result of our salvation through our faith in Jesus Christ we can do good works to glorify Him. No matter how you wanna put it, we CAN'T TAKE CREDIT FOR WHAT JESUS DID FOR ALL OF US BY THINKING THAT OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND GOOD WORKS SAVE US.

Here's a question for all of you who don't agree with me. If you were to die tonight and stand before God's judgment seat, and if He were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, would you begin to think of your good deeds and depend on them, or would you without hesitation say that you are depending on the merits of Jesus and are confident that he is a sufficient Savior?

Last edited by antredd; 04-06-2011 at 01:37 AM..
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Old 04-06-2011, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,125,633 times
Reputation: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
It's interesting how you say that I sound like a Baptist. Does it really matter if I am a Baptist, Catholic, Mormon, or Seventh Day Adventist who has this interpretation? The bottom line is whether or not your or my interpretation is in line with what the entire BIBLE teaches on this very important topic.

In order to understand any bible verse, we all must consider the CONTEXT OF THOSE VERSES. If I read Romans 2:6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 out of the context of the flow of Paul's argument in the entire letter to the Romans, I might conclude and agree with you that Paul was teaching salvation by works.

These verses seem to say that those who do good works will thereby earn eternal life. However, after prayerfully reading and studying these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one is saved. What they do describe is how God judges mankind according to each person's deeds performed during the course of their life.

In Chapter 2, Paul is speaking about God's Righteous Judgement. Paul is quoting almost verbatim the Greek translation of the Hebrew (Septuagint) of Ps 62:12: and that to you, O Lord, belongs steadfast love. For you will render to a man according to his work.This verse would appeal to the Jew. In this Psalm, the psalmist’s enemies, while secretly plotting against him, professed to be his friends. He appeals to God, who, he declares, will recompense each according to his works. The passage refers evidently to Jewish enemies, and therefore implies that God will treat even Jews according to their deeds. Paul explains how and why God will judge, and how He can judge both Jew and Gentile and be completely fair in the process. The controlling principle will be according to deeds because deeds PROVES what is in the heart. It is an awesome and fearful thought that God will render to each one according to his deeds; this condemns the moralist as well as the obvious sinner.

Here are some passages that people who disagree with saved only by Grace use to support their view.

Titus 1:16 -- They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

James 2:14 -- What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
v. 17-18 -- Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
v. 26 -- For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Rev. 20:12 -- and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

While we know that it is by Grace that we are saved, works plays a role in how we will be judged. Our eternal reward will be based on how we live our lives through our works. With that said, it is also clear that simply living a good life will not get you into Heaven (and that is where I disagree with anyone who thinks that their righteousness automatically gets them a ticket into heaveN as if they don't need Jesus' sacrificial death for all our sins to be enough).

Only Jesus' Atonement is able to make up for our shortcomings and allow us to receive Eternal Life. Again the bible clearly teaches that we are saved by Grace, and because of God's Grace, as a result of our salvation through our faith in Jesus Christ we can do good works to glorify Him. No matter how you wanna put it, we CAN'T TAKE CREDIT FOR WHAT JESUS DID FOR ALL OF US BY THINKING THAT OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND GOOD WORKS SAVE US.

Here's a question for all of you who don't agree with me. If you were to die tonight and stand before God's judgment seat, and if He were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, would you begin to think of your good deeds and depend on them, or would you without hesitation say that you are depending on the merits of Jesus and are confident that he is a sufficient Savior?
I have already proved by the scriptures that we must do His Works in order to be saved. There is nothing you can present that can show to the contrary. I really don't care what faith you claim to be but what is in error is any teaching that Faith ONLY is what is needed to be saved.

Any Branch that doesn't bear fruit is cast forth from the vine. It simply isn't good enough to just want to produce fruit.
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:09 AM
 
Location: USA
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Originally Posted by hiknapster View Post
I've since done a lot of research on Christianity. I really feel that The Bible and the religion is just a license to be nasty to everyone else while excusing bad behavior or worse.
Hiknapster, your story is compelling and heart breaking. As a former Lutheran/Christian, I share your disenchantment with the Christian religion and I think you've hit the nail on the head with the above.

I do think that many of the most outwardly religious people read their holy books and they interpret the words in those books in ways that simply reflect and condone whatever twisted thinking they harbor in their hearts. They don't allow any wisdom concerning true Love that may be found in those books to penetrate their hearts or change the unhealthy, unloving ways they view the world. Instead, they grasp on with a death grip to whatever will allow them to remain in their darkened way of thinking -- not because they find true happiness there, but because it is all they know and they are afraid to venture beyond it. It is sad.

Fortunately, that is the worst case scenario, and it is not true of all who call themselves Christian. All of us, Christian and non-Christian, harbor unhealthy thinking to one degree or another, and it's only to the degree that we allow Love to penetrate and change that thinking that we escape from it.

At any rate, I wanted to say how sorry I am for the pain you have endured, and I hope you are finding peace and healing.
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:01 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 5,605,019 times
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I have already proved by the scriptures that we must do His Works in order to be saved. There is nothing you can present that can show to the contrary. I really don't care what faith you claim to be but what is in error is any teaching that Faith ONLY is what is needed to be saved.

Any Branch that doesn't bear fruit is cast forth from the vine. It simply isn't good enough to just want to produce fruit.
You made the claim that no one could argue against the Romans bible verse that you think PROVES that salvation is strictly by works. All that I was trying to do, in what little knowledge that God has given me in regard to this topic, was show you how you were basically taking those verses OUT OF CONTEXT.

I have read your previous post when you stated that salvation is not based on OUR works, and I AGREE WITH YOU HERE. Also, you said that you believe and indeed are confident that Paul is indeed teaching that we are saved by works, but not of OUR Works. Okay no problem with that statement either. You said that you believe that Jesus Christ has a copyright on GOOD Works (Do unto others as you would have done unto you). So if a person does GOOD Works then he can't boast because those works are NOT his works. When you understand it this way you can see that it doesn't contradict any scriptures. In fact you can then see why Paul had to qualify some things he stated such as this:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

I will just say this. As long as we put our trust in what Jesus did for us, and not put our trust in doing good works to be saved, then Jesus' death for all of us is only sufficient for us to be saved from God's wrath and eternal judgment.

Last edited by antredd; 04-06-2011 at 01:17 PM..
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:05 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 5,605,019 times
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Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Hiknapster, your story is compelling and heart breaking. As a former Lutheran/Christian, I share your disenchantment with the Christian religion and I think you've hit the nail on the head with the above.

I do think that many of the most outwardly religious people read their holy books and they interpret the words in those books in ways that simply reflect and condone whatever twisted thinking they harbor in their hearts. They don't allow any wisdom concerning true Love that may be found in those books to penetrate their hearts or change the unhealthy, unloving ways they view the world. Instead, they grasp on with a death grip to whatever will allow them to remain in their darkened way of thinking -- not because they find true happiness there, but because it is all they know and they are afraid to venture beyond it. It is sad.

Fortunately, that is the worst case scenario, and it is not true of all who call themselves Christian. All of us, Christian and non-Christian, harbor unhealthy thinking to one degree or another, and it's only to the degree that we allow Love to penetrate and change that thinking that we escape from it.

At any rate, I wanted to say how sorry I am for the pain you have endured, and I hope you are finding peace and healing.
Christians being nasty to each other is a tactic of the Devil. He seeks to conquer and destroy. I try not to get into a debate about God's word but I do take this bible verse into consideration when I do share or defend what I believe. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2Tim 3:16.
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
24,056 posts, read 24,461,643 times
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Antredd and trettep, have either one of you considered the possibility that there is a difference between justification and sanctification, both of which could be considered salvation. If you were to seriously give the distinction some thought, you might find that your disagreement is not as great as you think it is.
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