The Eternal Security of the Believer in Jesus Christ/Part two (doctrine, churches)

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Verna Perry

Amen P.T. (Pastor Thomas). Excellant post...but more importantly...the Truth as it is written.

God Bless you.

So Verna........ this isn't Truth as it is written,or does your bible not include these scriptures where it tells the one who fears is not perfect, as no confidence to approach God boldly ?


I think you find it is reverant fear and not fear you subscribe to and yoke yourself with and those you try and catch with.

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4 :18

The believer boldly approaches the throne of grace without fear, because he's made perfect in love.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:16

The believer also enters the Holy of Holies with confidence not fear by a new and living way, the new and living way being made perfect in love with no fear,because perfect love drives out fear.

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,by a new and living way Hebrews 10:19-20

[Elijah to come]

A agree with perfect love has no fear, and like you say a Christian can bodly go to the thrown, but we have a respectful fear of God clearly stated all through the Bible it is a very huge problem today, you go into sin, fear of God is a good thing, He can stop you if it gets wrong, He knows all the tricks of the enemy even though we don't get it all so much is coming at us, but I sit and bask in Him and sometimes I think Oh I don't want to go there and I get a bit worried, I watch Him kill hundreds of thousands in a day, I have respect and fear of what He is doing in many different ways, and I yet have piece in a major way all the time in the most difficult times, but one thing He has said to me, He has held me in ways and really worked me when He has done it. Then said you don't fight or argue with me, don't anyone tell you they do, you know who I am and you know I am God, you don't yell at me, or get mad at me, or tell me the way it is going to be, I have let you get so hurt others would not understand it and you took it and actually told me to give you more to make sure you wouldn't get lax I did a low moments let you get hurt more and you made it thru when things were so low and you were hit so hard you didn't know who you or me was. The devil can capture you like Job and you can be anywhere and he can hit sudden, as God does, good to have lots of pain and suffering to understand Him and what He went thru and others, Good not to be weak and lazy, Good to be prepared with Him so when you get hit you got all together for what comes even if you don't understand you know, you just don't understand the devil like confusion and when you laying on the floor in blood, real blood, you accept try to make sense always can't be done, but HE knows and even once the devil got my name from me, then he gave it back, I have been thru things so scary I am telling you and they lasted years, oh huge battles and crossing the devil and his demons have thrown at me, I hope I never have to go thru again, just ten minutes right now of what I endured years would be so bad, I look back, God you really were always there even many times I was so battle worn I didn't get it and I fought with what I had and you were there, put my hand on a plate of glass and a peice of hell would form and I would put the demons in it that were around me, He did it with me, He was the one doing it, but I felt it form and then it scared me and I pulled back and they went in. Blink an eye and they dropped from the sky, so many times and days and minutes I was surrounded, they tried to take me over, move me, capture me rape me, kill me, take me to hell, burn me with sun, oh my they shifted time back, watched people I knew things change, time shifts, I saw stuff I don't want to go thru for I felt these as I saw them and they don't work mixed with life here. I listen to wickedness night and day for over year the devil doesn't have on earth all different bends and twists to get me killed and others, I begged Jesus to stop them, but as Job wanted it to end now, always now, it goes on and can get real worse, never thinking but worse will come like hell, but not even that, heaven is far beyond good of what we know and hell and E Damnation is far beyond bad of what can be understood, and the colors black and white are there for a reason as the infinite symbol in both directions, better take all pain of every life then go to hell, at least their would be an end and hell is worse than the worse hear who ever is getting it I pray for those getting the worse and the devil doesn't like it,

If I pray to take him out and the top million demons and pray and pray and fast and read and do all things God taught me, I have trouble I feel it. And it is a hell type thing that comes at me, they really work me sometimes and I keep going and praying, some times I take a break, but I had 18 years to get the break I have now

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Elijah to come

A agree with perfect love has no fear, and like you say a Christian can boldly go to the thrown, but we have a respectful fear of God clearly stated all through the Bible it is a very huge problem today, you go into sin, fear of God is a good thing, He can stop you if it gets wrong, He knows all the tricks of the enemy even though we don't get it all so much is coming at us, but I sit and bask in Him and sometimes I think Oh I don't want to go there and I get a bit worried,I watch Him kill hundreds of thousands in a day, I have respect and fear of what He is doing in many different ways, and I yet have piece in a major way all the time in the most difficult times, but one thing He has said to me, He has held me in ways and really worked me when He has done it. Then said you don't fight or argue with me, don't anyone tell you they do, you know who I am and you know I am God, you don't yell at me, or get mad at me, or tell me the way it is going to be, I have let you get so hurt others would not understand it and you took it and actually told me to give you more to make sure you wouldn't get lax I did a low moments let you get hurt more and you made it thru when things were so low and you were hit so hard you didn't know who you or me was. The devil can capture you like Job and you can be anywhere and he can hit sudden, as God does, good to have lots of pain and suffering to understand Him and what He went thru and others, Good not to be weak and lazy, Good to be prepared with Him so when you get hit you got all together for what comes even if you don't understand you know, you just don't understand the devil like confusion and when you laying on the floor in blood, real blood, you accept try to make sense always can't be done, but HE knows and even once the devil got my name from me, then he gave it back, I have been thru things so scary I am telling you and they lasted years, oh huge battles and crossing the devil and his demons have thrown at me, I hope I never have to go thru again, just ten minutes right now of what I endured years would be so bad, I look back, God you really were always there even many times I was so battle worn I didn't get it and I fought with what I had and you were there, put my hand on a plate of glass and a piece of hell would form and I would put the demons in it that were around me, He did it with me, He was the one doing it, but I felt it form and then it scared me and I pulled back and they went in. Blink an eye and they dropped from the sky, so many times and days and minutes I was surrounded, they tried to take me over, move me, capture me rape me, kill me, take me to hell, burn me with sun, oh my they shifted time back, watched people I knew things change, time shifts, I saw stuff I don't want to go thru for I felt these as I saw them and they don't work mixed with life here. I listen to wickedness night and day for over year the devil doesn't have on earth all different bends and twists to get me killed and others, I begged Jesus to stop them, but as Job wanted it to end now, always now, it goes on and can get real worse, never thinking but worse will come like hell, but not even that, heaven is far beyond good of what we know and hell and E Damnation is far beyond bad of what can be understood, and the colors black and white are there for a reason as the infinite symbol in both directions, better take all pain of every life then go to hell, at least their would be an end and hell is worse than the worse hear who ever is getting it I pray for those getting the worse and the devil doesn't like it,

If I pray to take him out and the top million demons and pray and pray and fast and read and do all things God taught me, I have trouble I feel it. And it is a hell type thing that comes at me, they really work me sometimes and I keep going and praying, some times I take a break, but I had 18 years to get the break I have now

So, this is your doctrine as a Pastor? Unbelievable!

"From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and
suffer many things by the elders, chief priests and scribes; but he rose on the third day."

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Elijah to come

I was looking at the ministry you refered to, I was looking through things, is there any place that they discuss Rev botting out of the book of life, about having the Holy Spirit and then falling away in Hebrews Ch6, about 2 Peter of Christians going back to their own vomit so to speak or enduring to the end to be saved, or the falling away that comes first when Christians leave God? I looked for awhile but I could not see these issues addressed, there was some 60 pages, I was wondering if you are familar with the document if you could direct me to where the abiding issues are explained?

Thank you, I wish very much, that there was no way to be let go

I wish we could all go and we just ask and God forgives and we don't have to repent

But then I guess if it were that way then we would have something like we do now, faith and do what you want as jude said it get too.

If you could help with the locations, it is a giant document, thank you

Elijah, the book doesn't cover those passages you asked about. But with regard to Matthew 24:13 'enduring to the end', and Rev 3:5 ' being erased from the book of life', I did happen to address those in post #40 of the following link: //www.city-data.com/forum/chris...us-christ.html Part One

Later on, I will address Hebrews ch 6. Right now I have to take a break.

Though you don't believe it, there is indeed no way that God will let go of the believer. Perhaps in time you will come to realize it.

Let me direct your attention to the following study on 'Reversionism' - backsliding - falling away. This study is from the teachings of R. B. Thieme, Jr. of Berachah Church of Houston TX. He was pastor of Berachah Church for over 50 years. He has gone home to be with the Lord. http://www.gracenotes.info/documents...versionism.pdf

I'll tell you what. Rather than me going into detail about Hebrews 6, let me instead direct you to what pastor Mike Smith of Country Bible Church taught about it. Go to the following link: Fundamentals (Audios) : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX and listen to lesson #68. You'll find it interesting if you will take the time to listen to it.

And just on a final note, eternal security is not a license to sin, it is a license to grow up spiritually.

[Elijah to come]

I want to ask you something, if you leave your faith in Christ and become a Hindu and 20 years goes by and you teach all sorts of people to be a hindus, and die you don't live as a Christian, are you telling me, that you don't have to endure to the end to be saved,

I know what other things there are, for I have read them, and I did believe when I was young that you could just raise your hand and confess and even mean it and it would be ok, just work at, but that got us all sorts of sin in the church, watching all the years now of people in the world in the church, buildings I mean, i know as others do it takes more you got to born again, now if you got that, and you leave Him and don't turn back, and you did not endure to the end, then there are verses for that, it is possible to have Him and just walk away, I have met those who have done it, nazi markings all over their body, gave God up, were normal and preaching even earlier in life, i tried to get him to come back, He didn't want, spent a lot of time with him, not going to say he couldn't later, but he is in real deep and I know God can reach him, but He has been gone a long time and he is in real deep, and He got warned to stop and I helped him and let him live with me to encourage him, we talked a lot, he didn't want God any more. I just want a yes or no answer, can you leave your faith in God, live a full life not living a Christian life and go to heaven, I just want to hear what you say?

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Elijah to come

I want to ask you something, if you leave your faith in Christ and become a Hindu and 20 years goes by and you teach all sorts of people to be a hindus, and die you don't live as a Christian, are you telling me, that you don't have to endure to the end to be saved,

I know what other things there are, for I have read them, and I did believe when I was young that you could just raise your hand and confess and even mean it and it would be ok, just work at, but that got us all sorts of sin in the church, watching all the years now of people in the world in the church, buildings I mean, i know as others do it takes more you got to born again, now if you got that, and you leave Him and don't turn back, and you did not endure to the end, then there are verses for that, it is possible to have Him and just walk away, I have met those who have done it, nazi markings all over their body, gave God up, were normal and preaching even earlier in life, i tried to get him to come back, He didn't want, spent a lot of time with him, not going to say he couldn't later, but he is in real deep and I know God can reach him, but He has been gone a long time and he is in real deep, and He got warned to stop and I helped him and let him live with me to encourage him, we talked a lot, he didn't want God any more. I just want a yes or no answer, can you leave your faith in God, live a full life not living a Christian life and go to heaven, I just want to hear what you say?

Yes. Once a person has placed his faith in Christ, he is eternally secure. How the believer lives after being eternally saved through faith in Christ has no bearing on his position in Christ. The believer doesn't maintain his salvation. God maintains his salvation. That phrase 'enduring to the end' in Matthew 24:13 refers to tribulational believers surviving to the end of the tribulation and going into the Millennium in their mortal bodies. It has nothing to do with maintaining faith for the purpose of eternal salvation. The believer can lose eternal rewards and he can come under divine discipline in time, but he cannot lose his eternal salvation. As long as a believer erroneously thinks that he can lose his salvation, he will never get out of spiritual kindergarden.

[Elijah to come]

No God is talking to the chruch it is addressed to them, the church does not go into the trib, and we can not do what we want we have choices as David, did and we can not do what ever we want, we choices right and wrong Paul made that clear to both the Corinthian and Galatian chruches when they went into sin, they chose the sin, and if Paul is warning so is God, and if God is speaking the the seven chruches, the end times church not the elect of the trib and is threating five of seven chruches it is a bit of some thinking there

[Elijah to come]

I want to say about this subject, if I had my way I would want every one to never worry about anything, take all the demons and the devil everything wrong and fix it, we all get God forever, HE knows me well and that I want Heaven on earth, no hell, no eternal damnation, no sorrow, no pain, no suffering, everything put right, and why not nothing ever went wrong, I pray that stuff with all things possible with Him, time, matter, Spirit, He can take it as if it didn' happen some how, He knows I think, Got to be some way, and I see stuff when I have prayed, I ask the hugest things I can think of, I ask as little boy, Daddy, I know you are God, but I am a little boy in a world of hurt, I wish this wasn't life with all this end of the world and huge suffering here and below and ever before,

Oh how I wish, "for sure Elijah comes and restores all things"Mark 9:12 could get it done, I hope, I do not know how it works, But I love so much and cry so hard that I feel like God and me could explode through all existense and He could set it all right like David taking out Goliath, I believe, I hope, I pray, I hope against hope, love and grieve for what is going on it is hard to hold it together facing the truth of what happened today for so many, I don't have to worry about people right with God, but how many is that?

I know He can do it He is God, but the end of the universe is all laid out thru the Bible and the worm never dies, the fire never quits, He just won't let me be as lax as I was before for the time is getting closer and wickedness is getting vaster as He gets prepared to leave earth. He is God He knows and we live together and what I do we do together He is running me, I don't get to choose everything, We are One I am His temple His body and He dwells in me and walks me and He decides that I don't get to be a little boy playing in the sand at a beach but have to work hard to do what He wants, my part, I knew how bad it is, I got one life I can give it, I only survived because I shut down and He took over years ago

I know what is in the Word, and I wish all of you that it wasn't really a million times worse than what I have said in any post, He sits with me and says there is no way to understand it down there and how I feel about what is up here you can not get any understanding how bad it is to Me, and I was willing to go and fight there, down there, He said no, your not going, others he has taken and they came back had worse than me, they have never been the same(Christians so they would really understand just what it is like in the center of the planet), He has to take so much from them to survive ever again here and they warn, please make sure that your giving God all your heart

I love more than you know, I have seen things and I have felt things and emotions and pieces of what it is like there at a level I had to live thru for years and because I worked years to take all wickedness out that ever did and would exist in faith, hope and love of Him, with Him, I did everything I could and I won He said, for I had Him as David did, and I don't want to go thru it again the payment it cost me, I got hurt and it will take a long time to get thru it, you don't pray against every demon and the devil night and day for years and push as hard as I was and live, It is a miracle I am here, and I said I would go thru again, he said no, accept we won, He got the keys of hell and death at the cross, I use those when I pray, He got the devil and everything, but we are to fight them, Eph 6 armour

Please this is not a game here, we are not here to wrest God and His Word, I am sorry if you think I push too hard, but few that died today went up, but most thought they did and suddenly now it will never end for them, the devils lie, almost all go to heaven they lie and people want it, and almost all don't go to heaven, narrow and few, we are set up to accept everyone and not infringe on there rights to let people be comfortable and then they die and all around the world they act as if almost everyone is in heaven, when their not,quick tunnel with demons to the center of the earth

born again thinking is very small of the worlds population, and of those who know it, you figure those that sin are not His, you got to be holy, you cant be living in sin and get there, not you can't make any mistakes or ever sin, not even a big one or two...?, but this church in the world, everyone a christian here, no lose get lose get, but falling away as He warned would come on many who live in error.....

but walking away from Him that is not a place I would want to die in and I would't want to be in the world either, and I would'nt want to be believing a false gospel which isn't one and find a hot place either, and give those who really know Him well and He talks to us the same things and we do nothing but Him night day and in our sleep

we see a bit more of the truth and you just don't spend months and years with a Bible in your hand reading all day and studing night and day to obey and know every verse and risking your life everyday and all you got and don't hear Him, I know Chuck Smith and what He believes, I got saved in his chruch, and He is a good teacher compared to so many for He works at every verse in a superior way, and he feels it is short as others do even though we do not know, but just the abortion issue isn't understandable warning

[antredd]

Originally Posted by Mike555

And just on a final note, eternal security is not a license to sin, it is a license to grow up spiritually.

Amen Mike, I like that, and God bless you.

[Elijah to come]

How do people talk like this God asks? those that endure to the end will be saved,

Quote
Yes. Once a person has placed his faith in Christ, he is eternally secure. How the believer lives after being eternally saved through faith in Christ has no bearing on his position in Christ. The believer doesn't maintain his salvation. God maintains his salvation. end Quote

This is what God has to say and He does not get joy out of it

Revelation 11
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Hebrews 6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2 Tim 4
2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

1 Timothy 4
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
8For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11These things command and teach. 12Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

James 2
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I John 3
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.