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Old 04-15-2011, 02:08 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
30,492 posts, read 22,634,178 times
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My purpose on this forum is to present fundamental Biblical truth. Biblical truth is always under attack by Satan. One such area of attack concerns the eternal security of the believer.

The eternal security of the believer is an important doctrine. The believer cannot be oriented to the grace of God if he doesn't understand that upon an initial moment of faith in Christ he enters into an unbreakable eternal relationship with God. The believer can do nothing to lose his salvation, including walking away from it. It is absolutely impossible.

The purpose of this thread is to present this intensive online study of the believers eternal security. It is 64 pages in length and explains the doctrine thoroughly. If you are concerned that you can lose your salvation, then you owe it to yourself to study this material. If you already understand that you cannot lose your salvation and want to be better able to defend that fact against the attacks of critics then you will also want to study this material. I hope someone will be helped by reading this.


Here's the study.
Eternal Security - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ
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Old 04-15-2011, 03:04 AM
 
Location: Portland
130 posts, read 154,352 times
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I was looking at the ministry you refered to, I was looking through things, is there any place that they discuss Rev botting out of the book of life, about having the Holy Spirit and then falling away in Hebrews Ch6, about 2 Peter of Christians going back to their own vomit so to speak or enduring to the end to be saved, or the falling away that comes first when Christians leave God? I looked for awhile but I could not see these issues addressed, there was some 60 pages, I was wondering if you are familar with the document if you could direct me to where the abiding issues are explained?

Thank you, I wish very much, that there was no way to be let go

I wish we could all go and we just ask and God forgives and we don't have to repent

But then I guess if it were that way then we would have something like we do now, faith and do what you want as jude said it get too.

If you could help with the locations, it is a giant document, thank you
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Old 04-15-2011, 03:06 AM
 
Location: Arizona
28,960 posts, read 14,116,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If you are concerned that you can lose your salvation, then you owe it to yourself to study this material.
"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless with great joy,
to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now..."

In the final analysis there are no losers. Amen.
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Old 04-15-2011, 03:40 AM
 
Location: Portland
130 posts, read 154,352 times
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Ok, I am on page two
Quote from your 64 pages
  • Unlimited Atonement. The unlimited atonement is the efficacious sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the entire human race. This sacrifice was His spiritual death—not His physical death. The sacrifice was made for every sin of the entire human race. Unlimited atonement results from the efficacious sacrifice of Christ being judged for the sins of the entire world, satisfying the righteousness and justice of God the Father in propitiation.
How is it that Jesus's sacrifice was not His phyisical death but His spiritual death, was His blood spiritual or physical? or his body, spiritual or physical, It would seem difficult that the one time atonement or propitiation of Jesus Christ was His spritual death and not His physical death, some of what is said here is true, but that part is not, I have never heard this before, but it is J Witness doctrine

that part that Jesus as sacrifice was not His physical death but His spritual death, that is why he made sure they peirced His side so eveyone got the picture He was physically dead. He was flesh and blood as we know and His physical death was a very important part, to say Christ was spritually dead I have never heard that before since His Spirit is the Holy Spirit and is Him and He gave up His Spirit or the Holy Spirit when He died, His Spirit did not die for it left which is clearly stated. Now given the Holy Spirit did not die and to say that God spiritually died, I have never heard anything like that in the Bible. What He went through was death, but His Spirit did not die, Our spirit as Christians does not die at death it goes to heaven, death can not get us either, He died body and what His Spirit whet through was so bad it could not be understood, but the Holy Spirit did not die, Jesus's Spirit or the Holy Spirit left at Jesus's physical death, it seems clear that Jesus in Spirit or the Holy Spirit same person, "The Lord is that Spirit" as is stated in 2 Cor 3 went down to hell and got the keys of hell and death it would seem from the devil who had power over death and of course then once he was dead those across from hell in Abrahams bossom were taken to paradise where the thief on the cross was going to go, so just this one point we are into Copeland type nonsense already,

Copeland as I stated says things stupid ways, like Jesus died and went to hell and all nonsesnse Copeland is and so far using these kind of man made terms is very dangerous as Unlimited atonement, God states things book by book 66 books, this site does not teach books but issues, which is very very dangerous, Chuck Smith with His problems is much more sound for he teaches book by book and that is How God is, what you will find on this site is full of words and things not understandable to any over all, even though many things are true and clearly stated, for the issue I just underlined in the quote is from hell, as the stuff Copeland writes, He has lots of followers and they like Him too, got lots of money too, for people have itchy ears
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Old 04-15-2011, 03:48 AM
 
16,433 posts, read 21,239,443 times
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Luke 9:62 causes me to doubt the doctrine of eternal security.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:16 AM
 
Location: New England
36,911 posts, read 25,520,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
Luke 9:62 causes me to doubt the doctrine of eternal security.
Bideshi i mean this as an encouragement to you ,Luke 9:62 will not move you if you did not doubt Christ in you.

The scriptures are not for putting us in fear and doubt, if this is what they are doing,it's not the living word speaking to us.

Christ in us is setting us free from our fears not, bringing us into fear again.


The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, Because He did anoint me; To proclaim good news to the poor, Sent me to heal the broken of heart, To proclaim to captives deliverance, And to blind receiving of sight, To send away the bruised with deliverance,To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.' Luke 4:18-19

We read a passage of scripture like this and we automatically think this was for them folk 2000 years ago,or our neighbor, but this same Christ is in us proclaiming good news to us healing our broken hearts,delivering us,restoring our sight,and proclaiming to us this is the acceptable year of the Lord.

The scriptures are not for putting us in fear, the world in fear, for beating ourselves up, or the world up. These are all traits of our fundamental christianity operates.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Portland
130 posts, read 154,352 times
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Chapter 7 of 2 Cor is at the end

Quote from page five, sited teaching of this thread

Legalism is simply man’s futile attempt to gain salvation or continue in God’s plan through some system of do’s and don’ts; it is performing human good for the purpose of gaining God’s approbation. There are two major doctrinal principles that legalists cannot stand:
  • <LI style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Eternal security (once saved, always saved).
  • Rebound (being forgiven by simply confessing one’s sins in prayer[1]).
The fact that all anyone has to do is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and they will receive eternal life just ruffles their legalistic feathers and sends them out on the warpath! Also, the fact that once you name and cite your sins, not with tears in your eyes, or promising God to do better, but by simply acknowledging them, you are immediately restored to fellowship with God, gets the legalists very upset! Both subjects, eternal security and rebound (“homologeo,” translated “confess”in 1JO 1:9), depend on your understanding of salvation by grace and what God has accomplished for you. God has provided unbelievable grace! And part of the extraordinary manifestation of His grace is understanding the indwelling of the Trinity and the doctrine of eternal security


Now Paul had some real trouble with the Galatian and Corinthian Churches

The Galatians Christians moved away from the gospel to a false one, which is not another for there is only one gospel Paul said, the Jews put them under Judism and Paul said are you so foolish to have left what I taught you, he was making it clear we do not go back under Judism, but Paul still taught the moral codes of the old testament in Galatians 5 works of the flesh breaking the ten commandments

The Corinthian Church had a person, a Christian man, who took his fathers wife and commited adultery, it would seem his step-mother, Now Paul got angry with them and warned the church they could not let him stay in the church but to cast him out for they were just letting him get away with it, they did and in 2 Corinthians after they had dealt with it and sorrowed through it, they got through it, now important lessons are here that sin can not be in the church and it is no small thing, they tried to stop it but had to get rid of him, then Paul says he stopped you have really mourned and got thru this serious thing accept him back for he repented and stopped, and you repented and dealt with the problem also, so now it is dealt with move on, not the stuff up above on page 5

Now see this business they are doing here in this attachment, don't worry if you really mess up like David did it is a small thing just move on, God is not always like that, David paid the rest of his life for what he did, he did not have a simple little thing with sin and neither did the Galatian and Corinthian Christians, Godly sorrow works repentance even with Christians for that is what this is addressing Christians who went into sin in the chruch

It is one thing for sinners to be there but the Galatians and Corinthians really got in trouble with God and Paul had to deal with it, and he warned the Galatians that he hoped he did not labor in vain with them. Read for yourself, this once saved always saved really gets you into careless disregard for dealing with sin in ones life, just say it and move on and not deal with what you believe and did, make it right with those you dealt and hurt, you know, what if he had not repented in 2 Corinthians and they had not dealt with him, you know sin grows and a little will ruin you if you let it.

I am not at all saying it is lose get it back lose get it back garbage, a christian gets tempted and they can move away, they get confronted with it like is here done in these two books then people don't deal with it and repent as Christians, you can get used to sin, when you think it is grace faith and what you do doesn't matter so much, get into sin of what ever kind just bow your head and move on, you know how do you have sex with your fathers wife bow your head and it is all over with, when people are caught in chuch doing horrible things is it just bow your head and the church leadership says well you got you fathers wife this time you asked God and bowed your head, or is there going to be consequences, not with this teaching, then it is another girl you fornicate with bow your head no tears move on, We are not like this, we don't go around thinking we lost our salvation when these big things happened either, but we know we just can't live there, we might start saying to ourselves I got a real big problem all the sinful things I am doing as a Christian, maybe I am not, which many are not but think so, but when you truly were there and you go like David it is different then never being there, right with God. but you read what the Corinthian church and Galatian chruch went thru, they learned what does God say

11For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

what is in this verse 11 is not the teaching of the quote from this once saved always saved 64 page false doctrine, many true things are there, but it is not all true. losing your salvation is not an easy thing but if God warns about it in a few places and talks about having to endure to the end to be saved and being blotted out of the book of life to the end times church in Rev 2-3, getting lax like not crying and just go on to the next is what comes with sin in a Christians life and this teaching in this 64 pages will get you to not worrying about sin and God says we don't live and can not live that way, that is backsliding material, I can't imagine stealing church money, or lying to people in the church and just saying to them i am sorry and bow my head and move on with out making it right, if I didn't show remorse, which is absent from what is written there on page 5, who would believe I was sorry when I sinned against someone, who would I be or you

It doesn't mean I lost my salvation right then, but if I sinned and just bow, sin just bow please forgive me, I know, I have been plenty stupid in my life at some times as a Christian and people didn't like it, I didn't either, I made right and worked hard to get help from God and others to change, if I hadn't I would have been living in sin, which I wasn't I quit, I moved on because I sorrowed and hurt a great deal, I was ashamed for I did wrong, I had guilt as David did in Psalm 51, it is there for a reason, what is written down here is not what is at the top


1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man.
3I speak not this to condemn you: for I have said before, that ye are in our hearts to die and live with you.
4Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.
5For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears.
6Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus;
7And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.
8For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
9Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
11For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
12Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you.
13Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all.
14For if I have boasted any thing to him of you, I am not ashamed; but as we spake all things to you in truth, even so our boasting, which I made before Titus, is found a truth.
15And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him. 16I rejoice therefore that I have confidence in you in all things.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:45 AM
 
Location: Portland
130 posts, read 154,352 times
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pcamps, really the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, Solomon

Job feared God and hated evil, he was perfect

The sum of the whole matter is to fear God and keep His commandments, Solomon wrote in the end of ecle

Jude 23 And others save with fear, pullingthem out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh

1 Peter 2:17, Honour all men, Love the brotherhood, Fear God, Honour the king.
I wonder if Peter was talking to the church

Do we go around petrified of God as Christians not if you are being good, but David was really scared when he got caught and rightly so and that made him affraid and he stopped, what did he want more trouble as most people have today for disconecting their behaviour because they have false grace and salvation business that they got with out complete and total repentance, which is what is missing here, that it is all taken care of in a confession thing without the other parts like without sorrow for your sins and the wicked person you were, then David thought man I went back in worse than he ever did as a non-Christian or in his life, he was upset and stopped,

With all the intense temptation around us, can you never be afraid when you watch the devil move to destroy you, you see the train coming you move away, man when you find yourself thinking and going places you do not belong, you quote and fight, you move away, when you find yourself thinking in ways you should not ouch, I am afraid Lord I am going to a place I do not belong, please help, but now i have plotted and done, now I am in some serious trouble, did I learn my lesson or am I just sorry on to the nex thing, or am I thinking what is it in me that is going to where I dont belong, the devil drew me out with lust of something wrong, got to stay away from those places that I am not supposed to be, tv, magaizines, music that is not God's, looking at things I should not, knowing to pray for strength because it bothers me that I am going to places I am weak, so God makes me strong, If I had a drug problem I don't hang out in bars right, if I have sexual sin issues I don't watch movies with women tempting me, If I had a stealing problem I don't go to places that tempt me, a healthy fear of God and His Holiness, it is amazing with the warnings Solomon had from God he build altar for hundreds of pagan wives he had at the end of his life and never repented it would seem, didn't fear God just like he said was most important, lose your fear of who God is and you will find, given the best person on the planet had it of his time Job, you really find it is over

WE Can have great peace, but when the devil sends trains out of temptation it is Good to have healthy fear of God to remind ones self not to take the bait, we fight the devil and don't fear him, but man if people today have not lost the fear and understanding of who God is and they are getting killed by the thousands and hundreds of thousands in a day now, and this doctrine like this presented is a real problem connected to it
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:07 AM
 
Location: New England
36,911 posts, read 25,520,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijah to come View Post
pcamps, really the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, Solomon

Job feared God and hated evil, he was perfect

The sum of the whole matter is to fear God and keep His commandments, Solomon wrote in the end of ecle

Jude 23 And others save with fear, pullingthem out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh

1 Peter 2:17, Honour all men, Love the brotherhood, Fear God, Honour the king.
I wonder if Peter was talking to the church

Do we go around petrified of God as Christians not if you are being good, but David was really scared when he got caught and rightly so and that made him affraid and he stopped, what did he want more trouble as most people have today for disconecting their behaviour because they have false grace and salvation business that they got with out complete and total repentance, which is what is missing here, that it is all taken care of in a confession thing without the other parts like without sorrow for your sins and the wicked person you were, then David thought man I went back in worse than he ever did as a non-Christian or in his life, he was upset and stopped,

With all the intense temptation around us, can you never be afraid when you watch the devil move to destroy you, you see the train coming you move away, man when you find yourself thinking and going places you do not belong, you quote and fight, you move away, when you find yourself thinking in ways you should not ouch, I am afraid Lord I am going to a place I do not belong, please help, but now i have plotted and done, now I am in some serious trouble, did I learn my lesson or am I just sorry on to the nex thing, or am I thinking what is it in me that is going to where I dont belong, the devil drew me out with lust of something wrong, got to stay away from those places that I am not supposed to be, tv, magaizines, music that is not God's, looking at things I should not, knowing to pray for strength because it bothers me that I am going to places I am weak, so God makes me strong, If I had a drug problem I don't hang out in bars right, if I have sexual sin issues I don't watch movies with women tempting me, If I had a stealing problem I don't go to places that tempt me, a healthy fear of God and His Holiness, it is amazing with the warnings Solomon had from God he build altar for hundreds of pagan wives he had at the end of his life and never repented it would seem, didn't fear God just like he said was most important, lose your fear of who God is and you will find, given the best person on the planet had it of his time Job, you really find it is over

WE Can have great peace, but when the devil sends trains out of temptation it is Good to have healthy fear of God to remind ones self not to take the bait, we fight the devil and don't fear him, but man if people today have not lost the fear and understanding of who God is and they are getting killed by the thousands and hundreds of thousands in a day now, and this doctrine like this presented is a real problem connected to it
I think you find it is reverant fear and not fear you subscribe to and yoke yourself with and those you try and catch with.

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4 :18

The believer boldly approaches the throne of grace without fear

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:16

The believer also enters the Holy of Holies with confidence not fear , by a new and living way, the new and living way being made perfect in love without fear

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,by a new and living way Hebrews 10:19-20
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:11 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 7,192,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijah to come View Post
pcamps, really the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, Solomon

Job feared God and hated evil, he was perfect

The sum of the whole matter is to fear God and keep His commandments, Solomon wrote in the end of ecle

Jude 23 And others save with fear, pullingthem out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh

1 Peter 2:17, Honour all men, Love the brotherhood, Fear God, Honour the king.
I wonder if Peter was talking to the church

Do we go around petrified of God as Christians not if you are being good, but David was really scared when he got caught and rightly so and that made him affraid and he stopped, what did he want more trouble as most people have today for disconecting their behaviour because they have false grace and salvation business that they got with out complete and total repentance, which is what is missing here, that it is all taken care of in a confession thing without the other parts like without sorrow for your sins and the wicked person you were, then David thought man I went back in worse than he ever did as a non-Christian or in his life, he was upset and stopped,...

...WE Can have great peace, but when the devil sends trains out of temptation it is Good to have healthy fear of God to remind ones self not to take the bait, we fight the devil and don't fear him, but man if people today have not lost the fear and understanding of who God is and they are getting killed by the thousands and hundreds of thousands in a day now, and this doctrine like this presented is a real problem connected to it
Amen P.T. (Pastor Thomas). Excellant post...but more importantly...the Truth as it is written.

God Bless you.
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