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Old 04-15-2011, 10:38 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,682 posts, read 52,900,095 times
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Like after God created man and we (we never seem to do anything right in the Bible ) screwed it up, it says God was aggrieved he had created man, it seems to indicate real regret on his part. The obvious question is, does this mean God is somehow not totally in control? It's kind of like saying if God desire that ALL men be saved yet is alright not having his desires met or somehow can't.

It's like a bee-keeper releasing bees saying, 'I give you free will and I hope you will return to me' knowing full well the bees, by their very nature, won't. What kind of 'free will' is that if you are just punished for exercising it? It's as much free will as we have to murder somebody.

My only solution, as I've struggled with this, is that God does this to relate with us on some kind of human level. Perhaps as part of the evolution of the universe, to teach us a lesson. Anyway, this isn't about Universalism but about the question of how does it seem that God is actually SORRY he created us. He creates something and it 'malfunctions' on the first day? First Satan is supposed to have rebelled against him, then us humans, why does God's creation, which must have TOTALLY derived from Him because he is ALL, keep going against him?
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:06 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
31,008 posts, read 23,005,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Like after God created man and we (we never seem to do anything right in the Bible ) screwed it up, it says God was aggrieved he had created man, it seems to indicate real regret on his part. The obvious question is, does this mean God is somehow not totally in control? It's kind of like saying if God desire that ALL men be saved yet is alright not having his desires met or somehow can't.

It's like a bee-keeper releasing bees saying, 'I give you free will and I hope you will return to me' knowing full well the bees, by their very nature, won't. What kind of 'free will' is that if you are just punished for exercising it? It's as much free will as we have to murder somebody.

My only solution, as I've struggled with this, is that God does this to relate with us on some kind of human level. Perhaps as part of the evolution of the universe, to teach us a lesson. Anyway, this isn't about Universalism but about the question of how does it seem that God is actually SORRY he created us. He creates something and it 'malfunctions' on the first day? First Satan is supposed to have rebelled against him, then us humans, why does God's creation, which must have TOTALLY derived from Him because he is ALL, keep going against him?
In communicating His word to man, God allowed the use of anthropopathisms. Language of accommodation in which feelings such as anger, sorrow or regret, hatred, jealousy, etc... which God doesn't really possess are attributed to Him in order to explain the policies of eternal and infinite God toward sin and evil in terms which the finite mind of man can understand. God changing His mind is also an anthopopathism.

Here are a couple of studies on anthropopathisms.

Does God Change His Mind? : ChristianCourier.com

Blue Letter Bible - Help, Tutorials, and FAQs


Also, anthropomorphisms attribute to God human anatomy which He doesn't really have such as eyes, a hand, an arm. God is Spirit and doesn't have a body. I'm not referring to the resurrected body of the humanity of Jesus Christ, but to deity.

As for free will, decisions always have consequences. Both temporally and eternally. If the term free will bothers you then call it volition. Life is about responsibility. You are responsible for your decisions and the consequences they incurr. Since angelic will and human will are separate from God's will it was inevitable that that will could be exercised contrary to God's wishes.

Last edited by Michael Way; 04-15-2011 at 11:15 PM..
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Portland
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Knowing all this is really something, I think He is past finding out.

It really bothers us this whole thing you are talking about, like it was a mistake creating us, which he did say in Noah's day and He is saying it again now for He said as in the days of Noah so will be the days of the Son of Man, so given He is about to end what is on this earth soon, you might feel He gives us choice as the angels had to want Him or something else, that is why the American system taught everyone, you have a right to want God or not or what you want, God isn't really that way, He allows and has different parts to His will as you quoted, He doesnt want anyone to be apart from Him forever, but almost all are, it is a difficult thing, lots of whys and back to people have choice and He has What He wants and His reasons we don't know them all, but both fallen angels and people who will be apart from Him had a choice to have Him even though predetermined is there too

vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, I am just glad and thankful my name is written in the book of life, that I listened, that He chose me, I don't know all the reasons why it seems people don't ever even know much about Him ever and they go down, many people that know Him didn't try hard to reach them, why why, well He knows, I am sorry, I hope I am of help, but He doesn't give all His reasons, but people just want sin and their father and Not God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, pride
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:12 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,682 posts, read 52,900,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
In communicating His word to man, God allowed the use of anthropopathisms. Language of accommodation in which feelings such as anger, sorrow or regret, hatred, jealousy, etc... which God doesn't really possess are attributed to Him in order to explain the policies of eternal and infinite God toward sin and evil in terms which the finite mind of man can understand. God changing His mind is also an anthopopathism.

Here are a couple of studies on anthropopathisms.

Does God Change His Mind? : ChristianCourier.com

Blue Letter Bible - Help, Tutorials, and FAQs


Also, anthropomorphisms attribute to God human anatomy which He doesn't really have such as eyes, a hand, an arm. God is Spirit and doesn't have a body. I'm not referring to the resurrected body of the humanity of Jesus Christ, but to deity.
So you're saying God doesn't really feel anger, joy etc? Well I know you wouldn't say he's an impersonal spirit, because his Love is real. In the Bible God frequently seems to be frustrated at us. No human being who is in total control is TRULY frustrated, are they? So perhaps the theology which makes everything totally our fault isn't quite correct. Yes he has given us responsibility, but an all-powerful God who has lost control of his creation?
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Portland
130 posts, read 155,170 times
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Mike God is a Man and He is a Spirit, In Him Dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, we are created in His image and likeness, he has all those emotions, I would be careful with Him thinking He doesn't have emotions and personality and things, He has got more of those things than would be understood, and God can change His mind, like in Jonah, but of course He knew He would, He is Life and a person, He is alive
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:15 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,682 posts, read 52,900,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijah to come View Post
Knowing all this is really something, I think He is past finding out.

It really bothers us this whole thing you are talking about, like it was a mistake creating us, which he did say in Noah's day and He is saying it again now for He said as in the days of Noah so will be the days of the Son of Man, so given He is about to end what is on this earth soon, you might feel He gives us choice as the angels had to want Him or something else, that is why the American system taught everyone, you have a right to want God or not or what you want, God isn't really that way, He allows and has different parts to His will as you quoted, He doesnt want anyone to be apart from Him forever, but almost all are, it is a difficult thing, lots of whys and back to people have choice and He has What He wants and His reasons we don't know them all, but both fallen angels and people who will be apart from Him had a choice to have Him even though predetermined is there too

vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, I am just glad and thankful my name is written in the book of life, that I listened, that He chose me, I don't know all the reasons why it seems people don't ever even know much about Him ever and they go down, many people that know Him didn't try hard to reach them, why why, well He knows, I am sorry, I hope I am of help, but He doesn't give all His reasons, but people just want sin and their father and Not God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, pride
Although Paul might have said that through his Creation there is no excuse, you get the sneaking suspicion the Lord isn't doing ALL he can to save EVERYONE, because if the Creator of the Universe truly and earnestly wished all to be saved he of course would.

I hope this doesn't sound like blasphemy to you, but it's kind of a logical impossibility don't you think? If most end up lost it simply MUST be his will. The only other explanation is he deliberately suspends his all powerfulness to our 'free will' which he of course created and gave us in the first place.
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Portland
130 posts, read 155,170 times
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Well it is true we are born into sin, we do have a choice to turn from it to Him and stop living the wicked life, He is in control, it never got away from Him, He has His reasons and people that don't make it are not going to reply against, nor people on earth should be doing it either, that is why, they end up in a place they don't want, they don't get who He is and worship Him, fear Him, man if fear of hell is not a place to motivate one to repentance and finding out just who is He, Oh please Lord more of you here on this site
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:27 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
31,008 posts, read 23,005,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
So you're saying God doesn't really feel anger, joy etc? Well I know you wouldn't say he's an impersonal spirit, because his Love is real. In the Bible God frequently seems to be frustrated at us. No human being who is in total control is TRULY frustrated, are they? So perhaps the theology which makes everything totally our fault isn't quite correct. Yes he has given us responsibility, but an all-powerful God who has lost control of his creation?
God has perfect happiness. As I said, anthropopathisms best describe the policies of God toward sin and evil. I can't go beyond that. God is never frustrated. He knew from eternity past how things would be before He created anything. And He has not lost control of anything. Everything that happens is allowed by God to happen. It all has to do with the angelic conflict. You may have seen the thread I post about it from time to time.

If you mean man's rebellion against God, yes that was Adam's fault.
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:32 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,682 posts, read 52,900,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God has perfect happiness. As I said, anthropopathisms best describe the policies of God toward sin and evil. I can't go beyond that. God is never frustrated. He knew from eternity past how things would be before He created anything. And He has not lost control of anything. Everything that happens is allowed by God to happen. It all has to do with the angelic conflict. You may have seen the thread I post about it from time to time.

If you mean man's rebellion against God, yes that was Adam's fault.
God is at peace with himself yet 80% of the time in the OT God is some flavour of crimson, whether he be wreaking revenge, pleading with sinners, threatening revenge, cursing people...dare I say it, it's as if he's relying on US for his happiness, in a way. Or if it's mostly for our benefit too, then he's seemingly powerless against our sinful, rebellious selves, save to flood the world or rain down fire and brimstone.
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:33 PM
 
7,649 posts, read 6,214,229 times
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In response to Elijah to Come:

Mother: Son, if you don't love me, I will set you on fire.
Child: I love you mother.



What a sad view some have of our beautiful Creator who says that HE is LOVE. 1 Corinthians 13. Meditate on it.
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