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It's not that people should take into consideration what I say, but what Jesus said. If we want to discuss resistance to violence, Jesus tells us "turn the other cheek." Can we live that, or not?
Blessings,
brian
Brian, this is a disingenuous response. It is not Jesus' words which are in dispute here, but yours. Since you are the one condemning those who do not see these words in the same black & white way as you do, I would think you would be willing to answer questions about your stance and consider that the implications of that stance may very well be at odds with the very thing which you say you value so highly: Love. If you disagree with the points that have been made, why?
36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Romans 12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Hebrews 10:30-31 (King James Version)
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Matthew 5:42 (King James Version)
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Brian, this is a disingenuous response. It is not Jesus' words which are in dispute here, but yours. Since you are the one condemning those who do not see these words in the same black & white way as you do, I would think you would be willing to answer questions about your stance and consider that the implications of that stance may very well be at odds with the very thing which you say you value so highly: Love. If you disagree with the points that have been made, why?
Actually, I'm not "condemning" anyone. You are the one who says I am condemning others. I am only saying that Jesus tells us love our enemies, and you are saying that we can't always love them. I disagree.
Please ask your questions one by one, and I will respond.
Actually, I'm not "condemning" anyone. You are the one who says I am condemning others. I am only saying that Jesus tells us love our enemies, and you are saying that we can't always love them. I disagree.
Yes, I am saying that you condemn others, because I think you are. You make negative assumptions about their motives and the state of their hearts and question them calling themselves Christians because they do not agree with you on how best to fulfill the words of Jesus.
As to the bolded, you are putting words in my mouth. At no point have I said that we cannot "always love" our enemies. I am saying that Loving our enemies cannot take precedence over Loving ALL, and non-violence (thereby allowing evil free reign) is not always the best way in which to Love ALL.
Quote:
Please ask your questions one by one, and I will respond.
It would be easiest if you simply went back to my prior posts and actually addressed them. But this should get you started:
Are you going to protect people in harm's way? If not, how do you have the right to criticize those who do, and to accuse them of loving war and violence? Do you expect them to protect others through non-violent means, while not being willing to set the example and do the same thing?
Or do you simply not believe that evil should be confronted, or that people in harm's way should be protected from evil? Do you believe that only those who are committing evil acts are worthy of being Loved?
Personally, as I've said before, I appreciate your passion. I'm rooting for you whether you believe it or not. Imo, your idealism needs to meet squarely with reality, and then you can focus your passion to where it will actually accomplish something worthwhile (llike MLK's Freedom Riders and the abolitionist Quakers) rather than just aggravating and insulting people. I think that someone with your passion could potentially make a huge impact, but not if you continue to refuse putting that passion under the microscope and see how it actually measures up to what you say you value: Love.
Yes, I am saying that you condemn others, because I think you are. You make negative assumptions about their motives and the state of their hearts and question them calling themselves Christians because they do not agree with you on how best to fulfill the words of Jesus.
I do indeed comment regarding those who say they are Christians but do not follow Jesus' commands in the Gospels. If this is "condemning," then I guess I am condemning.
As to the bolded, you are putting words in my mouth. At no point have I said that we cannot "always love" our enemies. I am saying that Loving our enemies cannot take precedence over Loving ALL, and non-violence (thereby allowing evil free reign) is not always the best way in which to Love ALL.
I don't say that loving our enemies "takes precedence" over loving all men. Did I say that it takes precedence?
Allowing evil to reign is, yes, what we are called to do. Jesus didn't resist the evil inflicted upon Him. In fact, He prayed and forgave those who did Him violence. His way is, aisi, the highest way that man can attain to.
It would be easiest if you simply went back to my prior posts and actually addressed them. But this should get you started:
Are you going to protect people in harm's way? If not, how do you have the right to criticize those who do, and to accuse them of loving war and violence? Do you expect them to protect others through non-violent means, while not being willing to set the example and do the same thing?
I think I already told you that we can try to prevent violence through attempts to restrain, to persuade, and if must be, offer ourselves in the place of others. Have you ever heard of Maximilian Kolbe? If not, here's a link: Maximilian Kolbe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Or do you simply not believe that evil should be confronted, or that people in harm's way should be protected from evil? Do you believe that only those who are committing evil acts are worthy of being Loved?
Do you really think that I am saying that only those who do evil ought to receive love?? As I mentioned, there are many ways to address the question of evil. One way is to discuss how evil can be overcome with good, as Jesus teaches us in the Gospels. Another way might be to protest wars, or try to intervene in conflict-laden areas, such as the Gaza strip.
Personally, as I've said before, I appreciate your passion. I'm rooting for you whether you believe it or not. Imo, your idealism needs to meet squarely with reality, and then you can focus your passion to where it will actually accomplish something worthwhile (llike MLK's Freedom Riders and the abolitionist Quakers) rather than just aggravating and insulting people. I think that someone with your passion could potentially make a huge impact, but not if you continue to refuse putting that passion under the microscope and see how it actually measures up to what you say you value: Love.
If I am insulting people, please show me where, and I will apologize. (After all, I am not perfect either!)
I doubt I'll get back to you today on this. I'm not sure if I will at all. I think I've said what I felt might be helpful and my purpose was not to win an argument with you but to give you pause for thought on an important subject, as you have for me. (The best conversation is a two way street.) I don't want to belabor my point more than I have, most especially because it doesn't appear to be accomplishing anything worthwhile.
But just to address you asking me to point out where you've insulted people, I've already explained that I believe you are condemning people and judging unjustly, (which is aggravating and insulting to them), and you apparently do not agree. So, why would you apologize?
(I'll read your link, by the way, as I have not heard of him.)
I doubt I'll get back to you today on this. I'm not sure if I will at all. I think I've said what I felt might be helpful and my purpose was not to win an argument with you but to give you pause for thought on an important subject, as you have for me. (The best conversation is a two way street.) I don't want to belabor my point more than I have, most especially because it doesn't appear to be accomplishing anything worthwhile.
But just to address you asking me to point out where you've insulted people, I've already explained that I believe you are condemning people and judging unjustly, (which is aggravating and insulting to them), and you apparently do not agree. So, why would you apologize?
(I'll read your link, by the way, as I have not heard of him.)
Pleroo
I'm going to bed soon myself, so we can certainly continue another time if you want. I hope you aren't offended by our discussions, even when we disagree..
I hope others will participate on this thread; it's a good topic and I don't want to monopolize it! Still, it's definitely good to share and challenge one another, if done without "insulting."
I'm going to bed soon myself, so we can certainly continue another time if you want. I hope you aren't offended by our discussions, even when we disagree..
I hope others will participate on this thread; it's a good topic and I don't want to monopolize it! Still, it's definitely good to share and challenge one another, if done without "insulting."
Blessings Pleroo,
brian
Nope, not offended in the least. If I sound it, I'd say it's because pregnancy hormones and overwhelming fatigue just whammed me at the same time . I'm having a heck of a time being coherent in my own mind at the moment, much less trying to communicate.
Nope, not offended in the least. If I sound it, I'd say it's because pregnancy hormones and overwhelming fatigue just whammed me at the same time . I'm having a heck of a time being coherent in my own mind at the moment, much less trying to communicate.
have a good night.
You have done a marvelous job of communicating, Pleroo . . . I'm afraid we are dealing with a different kind of fundamentalist here . . . a black and white perfectionist who does not seem to entertain (or accept) the realities and limitations of imperfect human beings in an imperfect world. His statement to let evil reign is satanic in effect . . . and is exactly what his pacifism would achieve.
The comments here show the lack of understanding of what's going on in the world and the forces behind them. If your interested look up the "Know Your Enemy" series by the Fuel Project on youtube.
The lies go deep. Brian is right. You can't follow Christ's commandment of love your enemy while shooting at them with an AK47. If you don't understand this, read what Jesus says in the scriptures yourself.
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I hope you aren't offended by our discussions, even when we disagree.. 
