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If Christ had not overcome the abuses and evils of men; and death itself, there would be no Resurrection. But that is probably viewing it from a physical standpoint, having an infantile understanding.
Until we a able to put aside our differences, it will be next to impossible for the majority to comprehend the Grace, Love and Mercy within the Spirit of Truth. However, we will all come face to face
with it eventually. It's called Maturity.
If Christ came into the world to save mankind from the penalty we deserve for standing guilty before God in our sins, then there would have to be some penalty that we would have to pay on our own behalf if Christ were not our Savior.
I know the word "hell" has been critiqued quite a bit in these threads (though many English translations render the Greek "geena"...or gehenna..."hell" in Matt 10:28 (for example)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I don't think this question has been raised yet here. We focus on the beautiful truth that God, in His matchless love, has sent us a Savior through Whom (alone) we have hope unto salvation. But what if we had no Savior? We would then have to suffer the consequences, ourselves.
And given the extreme nature of what Christ had to suffer on behalf of those who would become saved through Him, we could only imagine what it would be for us if we had no Savior. And we would only be paying for our own sins. Christ paid for the sins of all the elect.
I'm curious primarily if the UR believers would answer the same way. Would our punishment be eternal without Christ? Or would there be a different kind of punishment for our sins?
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
The Atonement of Christ has reconciled the elect world to God. It secured and ensured for it [ the elect world] every spiritual blessing needed to live unto God and for His Glory through Jesus christ.
Even before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already [by the blood of Christ] been reconciled to God, it will now be a matter of time for it to be manifested.
The atonement accomplished the complete salvation for all whom it was offered for, that is the death of christ. It provides them Faith, repentance, sanctification, redemption, and every needful spiritual blessing to convert them to God, and remain secured forever.
I'd be carefule using that word 'OFFERED'...Someone might come back and say that the offer can be refused...
So God did not want to save the rest.
Yet God created the rest: knowing their outcome, knowing He did not want to save them, purposely leaving them in torment forever - and yet He still created them.
If He wanted to, then He would have. God created some people as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction. Rom 9:
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
That last verse in the Greek doesn't have 'what', it just has 'If' and the ending to the verse in the Greek is 'having been fitted for destruction'...Past tense completed...It ties in with what He said to Pharaoh...
I think what you need to focus on is the phrase "what If", in ver. 22.
Divine reprobation was always a possibility within the counsel of God. And no one denies that God, as the potter, could destroy His creation, when, where and how He saw fit. There is nothing that could prevent God from doing so. However, God, in mercy, has elected not to reprobate to eternal destruction. His mercy, as well as his obligations (to Himself) as potter over the clay, won the day, as it were.
This has been clearly revealed, not only in the OT law, but through out the NT teachings of both Christ and Paul.
Rom 9:22 What(G1161) ifG1487 God,G2316 willingG2309 to shewG1731 his wrath,G3709 andG2532 to make his power known,G1107 G848 G1415 enduredG5342 withG1722 muchG4183 longsufferingG3115 the vesselsG4632 of wrathG3709 fittedG2675 toG1519 destruction:G684
G1161 δέ
de
deh
A primary particle (adversative or continuative); but, and, etc.: - also, and, but, moreover, now [often unexpressed in English].
G1487 ει
ei
i
A primary particle of conditionality; if, whether, that, etc.: - forasmuch as, if, that, ([al-]) though, whether. Often used in connection or composition with other particles, especially as in G1489, G1490, G1499, G1508, G1509, G1512, G1513, G1536, and G1537. See also G1437.
Rom 9:22 ει δε θελων ο θεος ενδειξασθαι την οργην και γνωρισαι το δυνατον αυτου ηνεγκεν εν πολλη μακροθυμια σκευη οργης κατηρτισμενα εις απωλειαν
In Christ's Threefold Character as Priest, Prophet and King, each plays a role in the salvation of those He died and rose, as their Priest, He offered Himself for them, purchases their liberty, their right to life. Heb 7:27
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Notice, the effect , Jesus said He is to set at liberty those that are bruised, not offer them liberty, not make it possible, but He actually sets them at liberty..Its the same word for send forth
Originally Posted by legoman So God did not want to save the rest.
Yet God created the rest: knowing their outcome, knowing He did not want to save them, purposely leaving them in torment forever - and yet He still created them.
That's the Sovreignty of God...
No . . . that's the Savagery of the ignorant primitives who concocted this unjust justice and those who believe it.
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