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Old 05-26-2011, 04:35 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,576,884 times
Reputation: 58253

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Quote:
Originally Posted by brakelite View Post
Good grief! With views like that coming from a professed Christian, that God wills people to suffer, little wonder there are so many atheists about. If God was truly like that, I wouldn't believe in Him, trust Him, or worship Him either.
You have a very strange understanding on the meaning and nature of the love and character of God.
Jesus came to reveal that character. Tell me. Was it Jesus will to let people suffer and die of disease? Was it Jesus will to allow men and women to be in pain, continue in their blindness and lameness and deafness? Or did He heal everyone wherever He went? Name one person He refused to offer help to.

I repeat, God does not always have His way. He always, and again I repeat always, allows for the freedom and liberty for man to choose his own destiny. God is willing that none should perish, but many will perish because of they choose not to believe and they choose to cherish, teach, approve of and practise all manner of iniquity and sin, and take pleasure in doing so. Heaven to them; the company of holy angels and the redeemed would be to them torture. God will not, He cannot allow any such unrepentant unholy unconverted ones into heaven for they would quickly endanger the eternal security and bliss that heaven offers.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Acts 7:51 ¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Re 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


God may be willing to do something, but that does not always equate with what He shall do.
Good grief is right!! How in heaven's name did we all get here? That's right, we were CREATED by God and to say that God is not in control of EVERYTHING is to say that He is not God. You've already been told that. He decides who will be saved in this life and who will be saved in the next. He has His elect that He has CHOSEN, and then there's the rest of humanity. Do you really think that God does not allow suffering when it exists? If he did not allow it, it wouldn't exist!! It is a means to an end, every little detail of our lives is planned out, every single thing.

I can't believe that anyone could say that God doesn't allow suffering.....but that doesn't make Him a monster. God is a God of love and He wants ALL of us to come to Him and in time we ALL will. Do you not think that God had/has a plan from the very beginning? It's easy to blame God for the atrocities of the world but the fact is that sin entering the world is what caused it. It only makes sense that God allows suffering in this life or else there wouldn't be any! He knew sin would enter the equation and what would happen, but He cannot interfere or the Bible would be a complete lie.

I can understand your resistance to say that God allows suffering because that puts Him in a bad light in some people's eyes. But those people's eyes, mind and heart will be changed in time. Our job is to teach about the love of God and how much better life can be IN THIS LIFE with Him in it. Is it not? It's not fruitful to argue about what God allows and what He doesn't because He is GOD. We have life because of Him and if He wants and desires His plan to be played out as it is written then it will be.

Yes, Jesus healed because He is God and He proved exactly what God is capable of. Jesus is our only hope as we go through this temporary life and that's what we should be focused on.
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Old 05-26-2011, 11:35 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
234 posts, read 237,176 times
Reputation: 57
You have altered the discussion. The original premise we were discussing was 'is it God's will that we men and women suffer and die from disease and disaster etc." We are talking about what God wills, not about what He allows. There is a difference. Your perspective of what God wills is that whatever He wants, He gets. In other words, if you claim as you originally did that it is God's will that people suffer, it is because that is what He wants, and therefore set out to accomplish that.
On the other hand, allowing something to develop that comes from another source (Satan) in order to allow the true nature of that source to become evident and thus prove him a liar and a murderer and vindicate God's purposes in the earth is another story.
Your claim because God is willing that everyone is to be saved, it is therefore inevitable, because it is His power that accomplishes it, is an entirely different scenario from claiming God is willing that people should suffer.

Again I repeat, that God does not always have His way.
Was it God's will that Israel dance around the golden calf?
Was it God's will that Hezekiah reveal all his wealth to the Babylonian officials rather than testify to the grace and goodness of He who gave it?
Was it God's will that Jonah take a sightseeing tour of the Mediterranean before going to Nineveh?
I could go on for pages with further examples.
Is it God's will today that children die constantly through starvation? Or does He mourn and weep for the poor, the hungry, the homeless, the war-torn and the downtrodden? I would suggest to you that if it is God's will that people suffer, then why does He expect, nay command, His children to alleviate that suffering every opportunity we get? Even more than that, God makes it a condition of our salvation that we do so. It is therefore far from God's will that people suffer, rather it is God's will that we should do all within our power to endure that the homeless are invited to our place, that the hungry are fed, that the prisons are visited, and that the unsaved have the gospel preached to them.

I sincerely hope that because you believe that because God 'wills' that all should come to repentance, and therefore 'everyone will eventually be saved', that you don't find the preaching of the gospel unnecessary. Because if you are wrong, and I am assured you are for many reasons, and this life is the final and only opportunity for repentance, then by your false teaching and your reluctance to share the truth of the atoning blood of Christ, you will be responsible for the potential loss of souls who thought they always had a second chance and vacillated over their decision to accept Christ and repent while they had a chance.
It all fine and well if you personally believe what you do, and keep it to yourself, but to teach and spread that lie to others is piling upon yourself the collective destiny of countless others.
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Old 05-26-2011, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,475,192 times
Reputation: 1737
Quote:
Originally Posted by brakelite View Post
You have altered the discussion. The original premise we were discussing was 'is it God's will that we men and women suffer and die from disease and disaster etc." We are talking about what God wills, not about what He allows. There is a difference. Your perspective of what God wills is that whatever He wants, He gets. In other words, if you claim as you originally did that it is God's will that people suffer, it is because that is what He wants, and therefore set out to accomplish that.
On the other hand, allowing something to develop that comes from another source (Satan) in order to allow the true nature of that source to become evident and thus prove him a liar and a murderer and vindicate God's purposes in the earth is another story.
Your claim because God is willing that everyone is to be saved, it is therefore inevitable, because it is His power that accomplishes it, is an entirely different scenario from claiming God is willing that people should suffer.

Again I repeat, that God does not always have His way.
Was it God's will that Israel dance around the golden calf?
Was it God's will that Hezekiah reveal all his wealth to the Babylonian officials rather than testify to the grace and goodness of He who gave it?
Was it God's will that Jonah take a sightseeing tour of the Mediterranean before going to Nineveh?
I could go on for pages with further examples.
Is it God's will today that children die constantly through starvation? Or does He mourn and weep for the poor, the hungry, the homeless, the war-torn and the downtrodden? I would suggest to you that if it is God's will that people suffer, then why does He expect, nay command, His children to alleviate that suffering every opportunity we get? Even more than that, God makes it a condition of our salvation that we do so. It is therefore far from God's will that people suffer, rather it is God's will that we should do all within our power to endure that the homeless are invited to our place, that the hungry are fed, that the prisons are visited, and that the unsaved have the gospel preached to them.

I sincerely hope that because you believe that because God 'wills' that all should come to repentance, and therefore 'everyone will eventually be saved', that you don't find the preaching of the gospel unnecessary. Because if you are wrong, and I am assured you are for many reasons, and this life is the final and only opportunity for repentance, then by your false teaching and your reluctance to share the truth of the atoning blood of Christ, you will be responsible for the potential loss of souls who thought they always had a second chance and vacillated over their decision to accept Christ and repent while they had a chance.
It all fine and well if you personally believe what you do, and keep it to yourself, but to teach and spread that lie to others is piling upon yourself the collective destiny of countless others.
God willing himself to save everyone is a liitle different than God allowing men to do things. God wills all men to be saved... He is the savior therefore he is the ONLY one able to save anyone! How then does He not do what he himself willed himself to do? God doesn't obey God?

Christs gospel is not what you perceive it to be. He did not come into the world to condemn but to save.


Weymouth New Testament version
Romans 5:18
It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.

Acquittal for the whole race.... For the lack of righteousness present in all of us. No one is in danger of staying lost. And there is no danger in spreading the true gospel...all will be saved. God wills it.
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Old 05-27-2011, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,192,722 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by brakelite View Post
It's all fine and well if you personally believe what you do, and keep it to yourself, but to teach and spread that lie to others is piling upon yourself the collective destiny of countless others.
The dogma of assumption or half-hearted faith?
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Old 05-27-2011, 06:38 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,861,394 times
Reputation: 2226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Good grief is right!! How in heaven's name did we all get here? That's right, we were CREATED by God and to say that God is not in control of EVERYTHING is to say that He is not God. You've already been told that. He decides who will be saved in this life and who will be saved in the next. He has His elect that He has CHOSEN, and then there's the rest of humanity. Do you really think that God does not allow suffering when it exists? If he did not allow it, it wouldn't exist!! It is a means to an end, every little detail of our lives is planned out, every single thing.

I can't believe that anyone could say that God doesn't allow suffering.....but that doesn't make Him a monster. God is a God of love and He wants ALL of us to come to Him and in time we ALL will. Do you not think that God had/has a plan from the very beginning? It's easy to blame God for the atrocities of the world but the fact is that sin entering the world is what caused it. It only makes sense that God allows suffering in this life or else there wouldn't be any! He knew sin would enter the equation and what would happen, but He cannot interfere or the Bible would be a complete lie.

I can understand your resistance to say that God allows suffering because that puts Him in a bad light in some people's eyes. But those people's eyes, mind and heart will be changed in time. Our job is to teach about the love of God and how much better life can be IN THIS LIFE with Him in it. Is it not? It's not fruitful to argue about what God allows and what He doesn't because He is GOD. We have life because of Him and if He wants and desires His plan to be played out as it is written then it will be.

Yes, Jesus healed because He is God and He proved exactly what God is capable of. Jesus is our only hope as we go through this temporary life and that's what we should be focused on.
One point i do not agree with you on is that of Salvation in the next life...But God being in 100% control of His creation i totally agree with you on that...The main reason for the miracles that Jesus performed were to extablish Him, to identify Him as the Messiah for no one could do these things unless God were with them...and actually Messiah or Meshiach in Hebrew means Anointed One, who else do we know from the Scriptures that was also called The Anointed One?...It is our job to preach the gospel for we do not know who God has Chosen, only He does...The Gspel call goes out to many, but few are Chosen...God not only decreed righteousness but also sin...Life is like a dress rehearsal for eternity...eventually the show must go on...Life is like Basic Training...eventually you go out there and do what you were trained to do...
Isa 45:7 I formH3335 the light,H216 and createH1254 darkness:H2822 I makeH6213 peace,H7965 and createH1254 evil:H7451 IH589 the LORDH3068 doH6213 allH3605theseH428 things.


H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]


H1254
בּרא
bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Last edited by Richard1965; 05-27-2011 at 07:03 AM..
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:36 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,576,884 times
Reputation: 58253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
One point i do not agree with you on is that of Salvation in the next life...But God being in 100% control of His creation i totally agree with you on that...The main reason for the miracles that Jesus performed were to extablish Him, to identify Him as the Messiah for no one could do these things unless God were with them...and actually Messiah or Meshiach in Hebrew means Anointed One, who else do we know from the Scriptures that was also called The Anointed One?...It is our job to preach the gospel for we do not know who God has Chosen, only He does...The Gspel call goes out to many, but few are Chosen...God not only decreed righteousness but also sin...Life is like a dress rehearsal for eternity...eventually the show must go on...Life is like Basic Training...eventually you go out there and do what you were trained to do...
Isa 45:7 I formH3335 the light,H216 and createH1254 darkness:H2822 I makeH6213 peace,H7965 and createH1254 evil:H7451 IH589 the LORDH3068 doH6213 allH3605theseH428 things.


H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]


H1254
בּרא
bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
We can agree to disagree on salvation but I'm glad to see that you aren't in denial about God being all in all and in charge of EVERYTHING....the scripture you quoted says it all.
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:20 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,861,394 times
Reputation: 2226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
We can agree to disagree on salvation but I'm glad to see that you aren't in denial about God being all in all and in charge of EVERYTHING....the scripture you quoted says it all.
If God said it, then it is good enough for me...whether i like it from a human standpoint or not...
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:38 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,576,884 times
Reputation: 58253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
If God said it, then it is good enough for me...whether i like it from a human standpoint or not...
That's right, Amen!
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,405,263 times
Reputation: 427
Ilene and Richard...I am blessed to have read your dialogue. You two have shown us a beautiful example of Christian behaviour.
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