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13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
John 14:6 (King James Version)
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 15:5-10 (King James Version)
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Matthew 7:21-23 (King James Version)
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt 13
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
And forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. In the Lords prayer as Jesus prayed to show his deciples how to pray to the Father. Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. The man wanted his debt forgiven yet he did not go by the golden rule himself.
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them" (Matthew 7:12,
Everyone knows that while you are in prison you cannot possibly earn money to pay back a debt. Usually the cell is locked and the key thrown away. That's eternal torment. So why did Jesus use this example?
Possibly because He was referring to souls being "tortured" as a form of loving discipline until they "paid back the debt" (learned their lesson) so that they could then be freed from hell to enter heaven. That's how I interpret it, anyway.
I agree thrill, these verses are along the same theme
Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
When speaking about "hell" one has to be very careful that one does not give the word a meaning which the original word that was trranslatd as "hell"-such as "sheol", "Gehenna", or "tartarus", never had.
Quote:
What are the meanings of Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus? The meaning and usage of these four Bible words suggests that traditional Christian concepts of hell are largely mythical and in need of revision.
What I was trying to convey is that Jesus's parables always have to have some kind of realistic application to them or they are worthless. It wouldn't make sense for Jesus to set His parable of the lost sheep in a place like the South Pole for obvious reasons. Maybe a parable of the lost penguins, sure.
It's clear that a man in prison, especially in those days, had absolutely NO means of making money. So why would the king give a commandment for the wicked servant to be tortured (again, who can work to earn money when they are being stretched on the rack---unless he is an excellent stand-up...er..lay-down comedian who can put the torturer into stitches with his material)? Another thought: the king did give the man a way out of prison----pay the money back and you're out.
Some will accuse me of being too simplistic with the interpretation. I've written before that when one tries to get too far afield with interpreting these parables, especially by saying, "Well, over in Malachi he says those in the fields toil as if in prisons so Jesus must mean...." run the risk of dragging innumerable variables into what should be a simple, straightforward message: in hell one is "tortured" with fire (purified with the refining fire of God's corrective wrath) until his debt is paid (his learning process about the mercy and goodness of Jesus's saving work on the cross is complete). Then, and only then, is he fit to be admitted to the wedding banquet (heaven).
Everyone knows that while you are in prison you cannot possibly earn money to pay back a debt. Usually the cell is locked and the key thrown away. That's eternal torment. So why did Jesus use this example?
Possibly because He was referring to souls being "tortured" as a form of loving discipline until they "paid back the debt" (learned their lesson) so that they could then be freed from hell to enter heaven. That's how I interpret it, anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2
I agree thrill, these verses are along the same theme
Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Two really good posts and this is the kind of common sense reality of the scriptures that goes largely unnoticed. As a Universalist I felt as though I needed to go deeper, go above and beyond what I had always been taught and read those scriptures like the ones quoted above in a different light. It's amazing what happened when I opened my mind and heart.
What I was trying to convey is that Jesus's parables always have to have some kind of realistic application to them or they are worthless. It wouldn't make sense for Jesus to set His parable of the lost sheep in a place like the South Pole for obvious reasons. Maybe a parable of the lost penguins, sure.
It's clear that a man in prison, especially in those days, had absolutely NO means of making money. So why would the king give a commandment for the wicked servant to be tortured (again, who can work to earn money when they are being stretched on the rack---unless he is an excellent stand-up...er..lay-down comedian who can put the torturer into stitches with his material)? Another thought: the king did give the man a way out of prison----pay the money back and you're out.
Some will accuse me of being too simplistic with the interpretation. I've written before that when one tries to get too far afield with interpreting these parables, especially by saying, "Well, over in Malachi he says those in the fields toil as if in prisons so Jesus must mean...." run the risk of dragging innumerable variables into what should be a simple, straightforward message: in hell one is "tortured" with fire (purified with the refining fire of God's corrective wrath) until his debt is paid (his learning process about the mercy and goodness of Jesus's saving work on the cross is complete). Then, and only then, is he fit to be admitted to the wedding banquet (heaven).
I agree. Simple is better. I also believe that Jesus was telling things to them (a specific them) that were applicable especially then. Universal truths, such as found in the parables he used, are communicated using the terminology that was popular in that day. The debt repaid to the debtor shows that you "abide in love" . It frees you from the burden of guilt for that debt. I feel instantly better when a debt that was hanging over my head is paid.
IMO that debt isn't to the judge or God, it's to those you owe... Even an unkind word sometimes, and yourself. Golden rule.. Love God and others as yourself.
Jesus was explaining simple things for simple people and ironically, the learned had trouble with that.
Last edited by katjonjj; 05-24-2011 at 09:23 PM..
Reason: Grammar
This is so untrue and do you know why that is? Because when we pass into the next world, there is a further opportunity for someone who has landed in hell to progress out of there. Why do you suppose Jesus went to the hells after he was crucified? To tell them this Truth so they would seek God's Love and forgiveness.
Jesus went to hell to do a victory lap .... or commonly known in football as "to spike the ball after scoring the winning touchdown".
As a preterist, how come you are interpeting Hell as a ethereal place?
Well, I'll tell you, scio---actually I think hell is very real. As a former ET'er I suppose I cannot let go of my roots entirely. I'm not actually sure how all-encompassing "preterism" is; whether it stretches to such matters. My preterism is only as far as prophecy is concerned. The other stuff, heaven, hell and in-between, I'm not sure what preterists believe about that.
You gave me a good link once, I believe it was that Mr. Palmer's website that got heavy-duty into preterism and I tried to absorb it but didn't get anywhere because it was all too deep for me. When it comes to theology I'm really a bit of a light-weight; I cannot get too deep into the theoretical, just the scratch-the-surface stuff so I really cannot answer your question fully because I don't know how to treat hell as ethereal.
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