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Yes , God can be so much greater than I and I don't mind.
Greater......ok, but if he sets people on fire and leaves them in agony infinitely, is he nicer than you? Really think about it and don't be in denial. We are born with primary instincts of right and wrong. Everyone knows it's wrong to set someone on fire. E-v-e-r-y-o-n-e.....so why do so many think it's ok for God to do that?
Because that is what one reaps. If one sins there is a penalty. If one does not accept Jesus as savior and reject Christ there is no other protection . They reject the gift of eternal life and reject God.
The scriptures are clear that the wages of sin is death, not eternal concious tortue ...
To me, the bottom line of the hell thing is that Christians are totally in denial about this doctrine. They say they believe it because that's what they've been taught, but when it gets right down to it, it's not part of their faith. The bible says "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ." If part of this "good news" is that most will burn in hell, Christians shouldn't be ashamed of it, right? They shouldn't have to hide that part of "God" from their little children. They shouldn't avoid explaining that God will set you on fire for unbelief when sharing the gospel. But the truth is, people deny this doctrine within their hearts and also within the practice of their faith.
What if the "hymns" below had been written like this? Would that be ok with Christians? If you believe in a literal hell and think these type songs would be inappropriate, tell us WHY. WHY would it NOT be ok to proclaim the true plan of the holy, perfect, loving, merciful God of creation?
"Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I've found that most will burn for eternity."
"Count those burning, name them one by one,
Count those burning, see what God hath done!
Count those burning, name them one by one,
And it will surprise you what the Lord hath done."
"Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all people burnt below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."
"It is well, with my soul,
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, they're in hell, with their soul."
Edit: I am a Christian, so when I said "they," I mean those who believe in eternal torment.
Last edited by Bright Hope for Tomorrow; 05-27-2011 at 10:38 PM..
Ilene, if Hell is such a bad place why is God there?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there:
if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psa_139:8
Very good question Eusebius Personally I think that in order for hell to even exist a small portion of God must be present and by human standards of physiology you can imagine which portion that would be Sort of south of the backbone and slightly north of the thighs But on a serious note nothing can exist without God no matter how much many would like to think.
On another aspect we must realize that one mans heaven is another mans hell and vice versa.
Now consider this hell is a place of torment, not a place for God to torture. Also the chosen or saved receive perfect bodies while the forever lost will be mere spirit and be constantly reminded of all evil, big and small, and relive all aspect and effects of each and every sin. Consider this, a butterfly effect of sorts, someone commits a very small sin which they think effects no one but themselves. The ripple effect goes so far that the small sin effects another 100 times removed and like a tidal wave this person commits a sin which kills many.
Maybe I am crazy but the ripple effect started in the garden and the tidal waves are getting worse and the only way out is thru Jesus but a rejection of His gift causes that ripple effect to become much worse every day, every second and we are all caught up in it even the saved and the only difference is saved and unsaved. This is the primary reason why I cannot accept UR or ET, they are imagined extremes of what God has declared and I cannot reject portions of scripture to follow either extreme.
Because that is what one reaps. If one sins there is a penalty. If one does not accept Jesus as savior and reject Christ there is no other protection . They reject the gift of eternal life and reject God.
So let me get what you are saying... Correct me if I'm wrong. If I sow thievery, I reap jail and hell? More simple even than that... If I sow sin, I reap death and hell?
Isn't that being punished twice for the same crime?
God created the destroyer. We did not create hell. God created hell for Satan and his angels.
Satan likes to make our life a living hell by taking God's creation and working overtime to kill , steal and destoy mankind and all of God's creation.
We do reap what we sow. If satan give us the idea to steal and we rebute that idea we are doing God's will. If we listen to satan and steal we do satans will. We are to rebute what evil satan wants us to do and do the will of God then we become overcomers in Christ.
Well, I guess you don't know God the way I do. Divine Love has no oposite so God cannot know anything that is evil or create anything that is evil. it is FREE WILL that we used to create hell. Believe what you want though.
To me, the bottom line of the hell thing is that Christians are totally in denial about this doctrine. They say they believe it because that's what they've been taught, but when it gets right down to it, it's not part of their faith. The bible says "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ." If part of this "good news" is that most will burn in hell, Christians shouldn't be ashamed of it, right? They shouldn't have to hide that part of "God" from their little children. They shouldn't avoid explaining that God will set you on fire for unbelief when sharing the gospel. But the truth is, people deny this doctrine within their hearts and also within the practice of their faith.
What if the "hymns" below had been written like this? Would that be ok with Christians? If you believe in a literal hell and think these type songs would be inappropriate, tell us WHY. WHY would it NOT be ok to proclaim the true plan of the holy, perfect, loving, merciful God of creation?
"Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I've found that most will burn for eternity."
"Count those burning, name them one by one,
Count those burning, see what God hath done!
Count those burning, name them one by one,
And it will surprise you what the Lord hath done."
"Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all people burnt below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."
"It is well, with my soul,
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, they're in hell, with their soul."
Edit: I am a Christian, so when I said "they," I mean those who believe in eternal torment.
Very good points BHFT.....if "hell" is so natural and expected then why hide it? We should just start out telling everyone about it since it's such darn good news. I really appreciate your honesty.
It's contradictory to what Jesus is all about, which is love and life. If it contradicts and flies in the face of what Jesus is and stands for, then it's a lie. We've all been duped into believing this nonsense and it's time that the real truth came out. There is no such place as an eternal fiery hell that most of humanity is going to. Doesn't exist.
What does exist is the Bible which states God's clear purpose and desire, which is to have ALL people saved. It's right here:
1 Timothy 2:3-5 (King James Version)
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
This is perhaps the most fascinating perspective/interpretation of these scriptures that I've ever seen! I'd love to hear more! Do you have any good sources?
Blessings,
brian
I didn't have the means to answer your question properly before. I apologize. I did find this article:
"By the time of Jesus, the valley of Hinnom had become a garbage dump for Jerusalem with fires burning constantly to consume the garbage. However, garbage wasn’t the only thing dumped in the valley. It has been suggested that the bodies of those so poor they couldn’t afford a proper burial were sometimes dumped in the valley of Hinnom along with the bodies of some executed criminals whose bodies were not claimed by family. There the bodies would be consumed by the burning fires. In essence, to tell someone that their body deserved to end up in the valley of Hinnom meant that you viewed their life to have little meaning or value. You were basically telling them that the value of their life wasn’t much more than garbage."
I don't think this is what I originally read but taken with the Jewish burial tradition it makes sense to me....
"Only if immediate relatives cannot arrive in time from abroad, or there is not enough time for burial before Shabbat or a holiday, are burials postponed for a day. Anything less is considered a "humiliation of the dead," Greenberg explains." Jewish Life Cycle / Rituals: Funeral Customs
I didn't have the means to answer your question properly before. I apologize. I did find this article:
"By the time of Jesus, the valley of Hinnom had become a garbage dump for Jerusalem with fires burning constantly to consume the garbage. However, garbage wasn’t the only thing dumped in the valley. It has been suggested that the bodies of those so poor they couldn’t afford a proper burial were sometimes dumped in the valley of Hinnom along with the bodies of some executed criminals whose bodies were not claimed by family. There the bodies would be consumed by the burning fires. In essence, to tell someone that their body deserved to end up in the valley of Hinnom meant that you viewed their life to have little meaning or value. You were basically telling them that the value of their life wasn’t much more than garbage."
I don't think this is what I originally read but taken with the Jewish burial tradition it makes sense to me....
"Only if immediate relatives cannot arrive in time from abroad, or there is not enough time for burial before Shabbat or a holiday, are burials postponed for a day. Anything less is considered a "humiliation of the dead," Greenberg explains." Jewish Life Cycle / Rituals: Funeral Customs
Hope that helps.
Thanks, Kat!
I've already started taking a look..
It's absolutely incredible how much information we have at our fingertips now that Internet is here!
I think your links will come in handy in the future.
For now, thanks again!
Personally I think that in order for hell to even exist a small portion of God must be present and by human standards of physiology you can imagine which portion that would be Sort of south of the backbone and slightly north of the thighs
LOL
Quote:
Maybe I am crazy but the ripple effect started in the garden and the tidal waves are getting worse and the only way out is thru Jesus but a rejection of His gift causes that ripple effect to become much worse every day, every second and we are all caught up in it even the saved and the only difference is saved and unsaved. This is the primary reason why I cannot accept UR or ET, they are imagined extremes of what God has declared and I cannot reject portions of scripture to follow either extreme.
Yes, Jesus is the only way out. He's the only way period. Very insightful post Robin and I get that you cannot accept UR or ET, that's okay. But would you mind explaining why it is that you believe in eternal seperation?
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Personally I think that in order for hell to even exist a small portion of God must be present and by human standards of physiology you can imagine which portion that would be
Sort of south of the backbone and slightly north of the thighs
But on a serious note nothing can exist without God no matter how much many would like to think.
I really appreciate your honesty.
